Oil Pump - Filter Pressure "Headroom"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
2,371
Location
WA
So I'm thinking about the oiling system on a conventional vehicle, and was wondering how much pressure headroom the manufacture's design into the system to drive flow through the oil filter before putting the oil pump into relief mode.

Remember from out past discussions that as long as the oil pump is not in relief mode, all if it's output flow must flow through the oil filter and engine, which can be though of as a series resistance circuit.

Here's an example:
Let's say the oil pump on an engine puts out 60 psi before its relief valve starts to open, which will then keep the max pump pressure at a maximum of 60 psi while in relief mode.

Let's say that with oil at normal operating temp, and at high engine RPM that the max volume of oil out of the pump creates a 50 psi pressure drop across the engine's oil system. This means that there is 10 psi of pressure "headroom" to overcome any flow resistance of the oil filter before the pump would start going intt relief mode, at which point you would start to loss oil volume through the engine.

One interesting thing I see on many automotive chat boards is that someone will say they installed an ACDelco Ultraguard or a PureOne filter and claim the "oil pressure decrease" because of the proclaimed restrictive filter. But if you think about what's really going on in the oiling system, as long as the oil pump is not in relief mode, or the filter in not in bypass mode, the same volume of oil is coming out the filter and going into the engine (at the same engine RPM of course). Since the oil pressure gauge is normally located at the inlet to the engine's circuit (i.e., between the oil filer and engine), the pressure reading at that point will be the same when the flow is the same. Note that throughout this discussions I'm assuming the oil viscosity and engine RPM is the same, so those parameters are constant and out of the picture.

So what this tells me is that if the oil filter is a little more restrictive, but not enough to cause the oil pump to go into relief mode (hence the importance of proper filter pressure headroom), then you will never see any difference in engine oil pressure from just a slightly more restrictive oil filter.

But if you did see a drastic decrease in oil pressure, then that could be an indication that the filter is so restrictive that it took up the pressure headroom and cause the pump to hit relief, which will cut the flow volume, which will then decrease pressure. For guys who actually see a major drop in oil pressure, I'm thinking they have used up their pressure headroom and have gone into pump relief.

If the filter went into bypass before the pump went into relief mode, then I would expect to see a slightly higher engine oil pressure due to the fact that the filter's restriction is being bypassed, which will increase flow and hence the oil pressure going into the engine.

Just some late night thoughts ... what's your take?
 
True..
But you wont see any pressure rise
when the bypass opens as this valve will keep the
delta pressure over the filter constant.
 
Quote:
But if you did see a drastic decrease in oil pressure, then that could be an indication that the filter is so restrictive that it took up the pressure headroom and cause the pump to hit relief, which will cut the flow volume, which will then decrease pressure. For guys who actually see a major drop in oil pressure, I'm thinking they have used up their pressure headroom and have gone into pump relief.


The only time that I've heard of this occurrence is on an older engine. This leads me to believe that the oil pump is worn or of lower efficiency.

There are some engines that operate at the relief level off idle almost all the time. I haven't seen one, other than my Wranglers, in a long time. The 4.0 has a HV pump ..the 2.5 the OEM. 0w-10 oil just makes it come off of peak pressure while running off idle (the 2.5).

Quote:
and was wondering how much pressure headroom the manufacture's design into the system to drive flow through the oil filter before putting the oil pump into relief mode.


Older oil pumps don't have to have any relationship between the relief limit and the volume capability of the pump. On my jeeps, the factory spec relief is 75lb. In my opinion this is to limit the stress on the distributor. You may not hit anywhere near that with THAT pump's relief limit or with its volume through THAT engine.

My 3.0 Mitsubishi engine (crank driven), otoh, had relatively high pressure at start up ..with a relatively high relief (82) ..but didn't deliver high idle pressure hot. I just figured that they moved the ceiling upward. Kinda like broader VI for oil pumps
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: another Todd
If the oil pump is not in relief, then you have the same amount of oil coming out of the filter whether it is in bypass or not.


Yes, that's true. That's why (IMO) it's important for an oil filter to have a bypass setting that will not (ideally) kick in until after the oil pump has gone into pressure relief. IMO, the filter's bypass should only work if the filter becomes excessively clogged from contamination. Otherwise, the filter could be in bypass mode much more than it should be. The volume output of the pump, and the flow vs. psid characteristics of the filter really need to "match up" to some degree in order to ensure the filter works on the specific engine it's applied to. I guess that is probably something the filter manufactures must look at and test for to some degree.
 
Originally Posted By: ac_tc
True..
But you wont see any pressure rise
when the bypass opens as this valve will keep the
delta pressure over the filter constant.


Agreed ... guess what I meant (in a relative comparison) was that if the filter went into bypass mode before the oil pump went into relief mode (case 1), then you would see a higher oil pressure in that case compared to if the pump went into relief before the filter went into bypass (case 2).

In case 1, you still have the same flow to the filter/engine, but in case 2 you lose flow to the filter/engine, which will then cause oil pressure to the engine to decrease.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The only time that I've heard of this occurrence is on an older engine. This leads me to believe that the oil pump is worn or of lower efficiency.


It could also mean the pumps relieve valve is malfunctioning too ... or the spring is getting weak with age.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There are some engines that operate at the relief level off idle almost all the time. I haven't seen one, other than my Wranglers, in a long time. The 4.0 has a HV pump ..the 2.5 the OEM. 0w-10 oil just makes it come off of peak pressure while running off idle (the 2.5).


That's actually not a bad design. Give the oiling system basically max pressure all the time instead of a pressure that is dictated by the engine RPM - that ensures good oil flow at all times as long as the volume is sufficient for extended high RPM use.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
My 3.0 Mitsubishi engine (crank driven), otoh, had relatively high pressure at start up ..with a relatively high relief (82) ..but didn't deliver high idle pressure hot. I just figured that they moved the ceiling upward. Kinda like broader VI for oil pumps
grin2.gif



Probably means that when the oil is hot, the oiling systems restriction is such that when at idle the pump puts out much less volume (typical crank driven system), and hence the pressure drops well below the relief pressure.
 
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa

Yes, that's true. That's why (IMO) it's important for an oil filter to have a bypass setting that will not (ideally) kick in until after the oil pump has gone into pressure relief. IMO, the filter's bypass should only work if the filter becomes excessively clogged from contamination. Otherwise, the filter could be in bypass mode much more than it should be. The volume output of the pump, and the flow vs. psid characteristics of the filter really need to "match up" to some degree in order to ensure the filter works on the specific engine it's applied to. I guess that is probably something the filter manufactures must look at and test for to some degree.


Lately my thought process on filters has revolved around trying to figure out why Subaru's spec for bypass pressure on their OE filters is 23psi. I think this info you posted might be pertinent to that. In the instance of my new Forester, it seems to make a case for staying with a filter that has a bypass valve set at OE spec. Which so far is *only* the Subaru OE filter: the going-going-gone-and-out-of-stock black Tokyo Roki filter and its replacement the blue Honeywell Canada made "Fram" filter.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Lately my thought process on filters has revolved around trying to figure out why Subaru's spec for bypass pressure on their OE filters is 23psi.


That is somewhat of a mystery ... doesn't make sense right off the bat. The only reasons I could think of are:

1) The oil pump on the Subaru is pretty high volume, which means the filter could potentially have a larger delta P across it - ie, cold starts/high RPM. If that is the case, then the filter's bypass would have to be set higher to prevent unwarranted bypass events.

You said it was a pretty high pressure pump, so if the oiling circuit resistance is relatively low, the oil pump could put out a good volume if designed to do so - ie, if its physical size could produce high volume, high pressure output.

2) Subaru set the filter's bypass purposely high so it doesn't go into bypass unless absolutely necessary. In other words, they tried to make the filter pass 100% of the flow until the filter is pushed to the limit. This is related to 1) also, because in order to design for this reason, the filter must be able to take the bypass delta P pressure.

Is the filter bypass actually in the filter, or in the engine? I'm assuming it's in the filter itself on your Subaru.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Its in the filter.


Is there any way you can get the pump relief pressure setting and pump volume max output specs? Shop manual if you have one, or maybe the dealer could dig them up. I'm suspecting the oil pump puts out some major volume.
 
Quote:
Yes, that's true. That's why (IMO) it's important for an oil filter to have a bypass setting that will not (ideally) kick in until after the oil pump has gone into pressure relief.


You keep leaning back to this
grin2.gif
I thought that we agreed, except at a volume that would challenge the static spec's of the filter, that there IS NO SIGNIFICANT PSID POSSIBLE UNLESS THE PUMP IS IN RELIEF.

Are you still holding views counter to that notion (so I need to go into another feature length post)??

Loading will only move that static rating lower. So instead of NO CHANCE (beyond startup with empty galleries ..and then being a "probably not" scenario) there is no PSID of merit outside of relief.
 
Quote:
Lately my thought process on filters has revolved around trying to figure out why Subaru's spec for bypass pressure on their OE filters is 23psi.



It's probably the same reason that the Euro's spec 30+. Under the current confines of VI and the spec'd oil, the volume that they've determined appropriate for the engine will, more times than not, produce a pump relief condition that will assure that a lower setting filter bypass valve passes unfiltered oil (for a longer time than they feel sensible). They elevate the bypass threshold for the filter to limit this condition.
 
Well, time to put an OE filter back on then. I don't want the Wix to be in bypass mode all the time, since its bypass is set @ 11psi... significantly lower than OE.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Lately my thought process on filters has revolved around trying to figure out why Subaru's spec for bypass pressure on their OE filters is 23psi.



It's probably the same reason that the Euro's spec 30+. Under the current confines of VI and the spec'd oil, the volume that they've determined appropriate for the engine will, more times than not, produce a pump relief condition that will assure that a lower setting filter bypass valve passes unfiltered oil (for a longer time than they feel sensible). They elevate the bypass threshold for the filter to limit this condition.
 
Well, the amount of time your gauge is pegged (or peaked and then exceeding that level) is the time you're at elevated PSID. This could be in excess of the bypass setting. The longer this event lasts ..the more likely that the bypass is open (it's not mandated - only elevated PSID is). If your peaked event is short in duration ..then you know that this potential is limited.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
I wish my Subaru had an oil pressure gauge.


A wise old Hillbilly I was in the Air Force with used to say "Wish in one hand, [censored] in the other hand and see which fills up first."
shocked2.gif


In the scheme of things adding an oil pressure gauge isn't a big deal, just do it.
34.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Yes, that's true. That's why (IMO) it's important for an oil filter to have a bypass setting that will not (ideally) kick in until after the oil pump has gone into pressure relief.


You keep leaning back to this
grin2.gif
I thought that we agreed, except at a volume that would challenge the static spec's of the filter, that there IS NO SIGNIFICANT PSID POSSIBLE UNLESS THE PUMP IS IN RELIEF.


Keep in mind that as the oil pressure goes up (from increased RPM), so does the flow through the filter - up to the point of oil pump relief valve kicking in. As pump flow increases, so does the PSID across the element. IF an oil filter's bypass is set too low, then it certainly could go into bypass way before the oil pump relief kicks in. It all depends on the combination of flow volume, oil pump relief setting and oil filter bypass setting. This is exactly the issue that LoneRanger is dealing with and trying to find answers. Probably also something the filer manufactures have to consider when designing a filter ... to not make the bypass too low if the filter is more restrictive to flow and/or the engine's oil pump has significant volume output. Ideally, the filter must be somewhat matched to the engine's oiling system to some degree.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Loading will only move that static rating lower. So instead of NO CHANCE (beyond startup with empty galleries ..and then being a "probably not" scenario) there is no PSID of merit outside of relief.


Yes, I agree that loading will increase the PSID and bring the filter closer to going into bypass. But my brain keeps telling me that in the right conditions as explained above, you could have a filter go in to bypass ... even with no loading. If you put enough flow through it to create a PSID great enough, it will go in to bypass. I'd bet if you started an engine cold (say 30 deg F oil) and revved it to 5000 RPM that the filter would be in bypass, and the oil pump would be in pressure relief and holding at it's max pressure output point.

Here's an extreme example. Let's say that a filter had a bypass set to 1 PSID. This means it wouldn't take hardly any flow through it to produce this PSID level and cause the bypass valve to open - especially with cold viscous oil. In this case, I'd bet the filter would go in to bypass very early and way before the oil pump ever went in relief mode.
 
Quote:
As pump flow increases, so does the PSID across the element.


No, it doesn't
LOL.gif
Not in anywhere near the frequency of instances where it does not.

Well, let's qualify that. It does ..but you would be very hard pressed to detect it unless the engine routinely operated cold at near peak volume output ...which would, in most cases in the vast majority of engines, also cause the oil pump to be in relief.
grin2.gif


The PSID is manipulated (artifically = for lack of a better term) by the confines of the ratio it has to maintain with the total pressure elevation due to flow at visc through the engine.

If you ran two graphs of total PSI and PSID ..the ratio would be (something like) 20:1 25:1, 30:1, 40:1, 60:1 70:1 between total to filter. It's a YMMV situation since much depends on starting visc and volume ..etc..etc ..but you're not going to see true flow effects through a filter until some higher velocity through it.

So IF you had a 10+ gallon capacity oil pump ..but an engine with a peak pressure of (like) 100psi ..but the spec'd oil would never allow that pressure level to be reached (let's say it only reached 25 psi HOT @ 8000 rpm/10-12gpm of flow) ..then you may see the PSID that you appear to be seeking so intently
grin2.gif
It would effectively be at near parity with the engine for resistance ..which would be one loose goose of an engine.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom