Oil Analysis Report (Rebuilt Engine)

[wildjyoung]

Hello,

I am new to the boards and excited to use this resource. I just built a new 355 SBC for my 1991 Trans Am GTA. It is nothing crazy but moderately powered (420 HP). After the initial break in I decided to send a sample to Blackstone for analysis to set a baseline. The results were very, very bad. Lead (263 PPM), tin (16PPM), and copper (553PPM) were about 5000% too high based upon universal averages. I have 4.3% fuel in the oil which is not unexpected for the break in.

Here are my thoughts and I would like to get your opinions. The engine sounds and run great! If the numbers were truly this high would I not be able to tell?

Secondly, I changed the oil and it sat in a new plastic oil pan for about 3-weeks. PVC is stabilized with copper, lead, and tin. Is it possible my results are incorrect due to leaching of the plastic?

Any help or opinions would appreciated!


Aluminum 11 PPM
Chromium 1 PPM
Iron 38PPM
Copper 553 PPM
Lead 263 PPM
Tin 16PPM
Molybdenum 107 PPM
Nickel 1 PPM
Manganese 4 PPM
Silver O PPM
Titanium 0 PPM
Potassium 36 PPM
Boron 8 PPM
Silicon 56 PPM
Sodium 18 PPM
calcium 2214 PPM
Magnesium 10 PPM
Phosphorus 4254 PPM
Zinc 4542 PPM
Barium 1 PPM

 

[Boomer]

Lead is no longer used in the US to stabilize PVC nor is cadnmium. It is, however, used in the far east (China!) so depending on the source of your pan, you could have those. Copper, is not something to expect in any quantity in PVC. In any case, I am not sure how much would leach out. Even plasticizers don't really leach out of vinyl in short time periods unless there is some polarity to the solvent.

Try another test by just loosening the engine drain plug and collecting a small amount.

By the way, did you add a breakin additive? The P and Zn numbers are HIGH!

 

[millerbl00]

If Zinc and Phosphorus are too high I have read it will "attack" some metals. I would change the oil with a 15w40 and resample in 1000 miles. Silicon is high too. May have an air leak too.

 

[wildjyoung]

I am sure the pan was made in China just like most other things. The weird part was a did see copper colored metal particles in the plastic of the pan. With the 4.3% gas and PVC's degradation in the presence of gas I thought it may be a possibility. I am also wanting to find another reason besides "the motor is toast"

Yes, I did use Lucas TB Zinc plus. I called and asked if they used lead, copper, or tin in their formula but they would not tell me yes or no.

By these readings and the short time on the engine, do you believe there could be detrimental damage?

I sent in another sample yesterday with 1-2 hours on it and am expecting results tomorrow afternoon which I will post.

 

[millerbl00]

Its going to be hard to "flush" out the high metals. I would do a couple of short oil changes. Then use a "plain" oil and resample in 1000 miles.

 

[wildjyoung]

Thanks everyone!

I am hoping that the results are at least a little lower. However, I agree that the metals will most likely still be here due to not being able to flush.

I am going to take your recommendation and do a few short oil changes and then do another test.

I also heard that rebuilt blocks may also themselves have high metals left in the oil passages that unless cleaned with come out over the first 2-3 oil changes.

 

[JohnBrowning]

If this engine was built with 1950's type equipment and the shop is dirty and does not clean their coolant and cutting fluids etc.....or toss's nasty dirty blocks in to be honed with out a really good cleaning first then the above might be the result. The other thing that comes to mind is that this engine was not properly lubed before starting. All parts should be coated in some form of extreme pressure assemble lube and the oil circuit primed.

One of the problems with rebuilt engines especially Detroit iron is that the shops that do the work very so much in how they do their work and what level of contamination and what level of precision is acceptable.

I have never had a Detroit small block or big block that had not had it's core shift or that was not almost completely out of spec. with regard to the bores and the center line for the crank and cam etc.......On the other hand I have never had a Japaneses bore that needed to have the centerline of the crank or camshaft fixed and never had the piston ores out of alignment with the center line.

On top of al of that we do not know that each bearing was placed properly and that they all matched the needed size etc..... A lot of people do not pay attention to every little detail and the devil is truly in the details.

No ofense intended but this is the worst OA I have seen from a rebuild. With SBC it is not hard to build a low wearing SBC. IN fact if built right I have seen SBC making a lot more power then stock turn in UOA not too far off from a Toyota V8.

So go back and check the detais. Look for scoring or galing on the lifters, make sure you do not have oil restrictors in the head,do dry and wett compression check and a vaccuum check etc......

If you pre check every detail right down to ring fit you can assembly a SBC in 45-90 minutes depending on howmany of them you do. SO I would actualy tear into this engine and find the prolem....Imagine how silly you would feel if you instaled the wrong size bearings or have the cam earing mis aligned etc......

If tear down is not something you are willing to do then I would put Redline 5W30 in it and drive it like I stole it. The Redline is about as good as it get's for protection due to it's additive package in fact Honda use's a simalar package in their break in oil. Driving it hard will either seat the parts fast like they should have already done or it will make matters worse exposeing the weak link.

I would add two cycle motor oil at a doseage of 2% by volume to your fuel.

 

[wildjyoung]

No offense taken. I am looking for insight and I sincerely appreciate your comments.

This was my first engine. However, I had a professional engine builder there with me when I did the engine. We checked all clearances and used Federal Mogul moly assembly lube on bearing surfaces. In addition, the whole system was primed prior to starting.

One detail I did unintentionally leave out was an issue prior to initial starting. The computer was not working properly and was dumping fuel into the engine during first start. It ran but not well for about 15 - 20 seconds. Subsequently, I could not get it restarted. I smelled a heavy gas smell and dumped the oil only to find a significant amount of gas in the oil (1-2 quarts). I flushed with new oil, and then refilled once again with the oil that was tested. I primed the system again and engine ran well with the new computer of course.

Like I mentioned, the engine was not ran very long in this condition but it most likely washed out all assembly lube. However, it was heavily primed prior to running.

If the results are bad tomorrow, I will most likely tear the engine back down at the engine builders expense. I paid them to make sure I did nothing wrong and my suspicion is that it did not work.......

 

[REDDOG]

Too many variables to jump to hasty conclusions! Looking at the Phos and Zinc levels how do we know the copper and lead aren't from the Lucas additive? The rest of the metals look pretty decent under the circumstances. If the engine is running alright do as others have suggested and do several short dino runs and see if everything stabilizes before blaming the builder! NO WAY would I tear this thing apart based on an early UOA with an additive present containing an UNKNOWN additive package.

REDDOG

 

[benjamming]

I agree with Reddog - let's all keep our heads here. You'll need to trend the used oil analysis to see if everything is wearing in correctly or if there are problems. To get a jump on this, you can send a sample to Dyson Analysis.

 

[wildjyoung]

The new results are in! This sample had about 2-hours of run time. The difference is astounding and confuses me more.

New results

Aluminum 2 PPM
Chromium 0 PPM
Iron 5 PPM
Copper 56 PPM
Lead 28 PPM
Tin 0 PPM
Molybdenum 92 PPM
Nickel 0 PPM
Manganese 0 PPM
Silver O PPM
Titanium 0 PPM
Potassium 5 PPM
Boron 4 PPM
Silicon 12 PPM
Sodium 5 PPM
calcium 1205 PPM
Magnesium 4 PPM
Phosphorus 1502 PPM
Zinc 1706 PPM
Barium 0 PPM


Anyone have any ideas?

 

[benjamming]

So, how many oil changes between the 1st UOA & this one?

 

[wildjyoung]

The latest sample is the short oil change right after the initial sample. So just 1.

 

[JT1]

And to think you were about to tear this apart. Patience my young padawan.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: REDDOG
Too many variables to jump to hasty conclusions! Looking at the Phos and Zinc levels how do we know the copper and lead aren't from the Lucas additive? The rest of the metals look pretty decent under the circumstances. If the engine is running alright do as others have suggested and do several short dino runs and see if everything stabilizes before blaming the builder! NO WAY would I tear this thing apart based on an early used oil analysis with an additive present containing an UNKNOWN additive package.

REDDOG



Well said. I'm just curious what oil we are talking about here.

Short "flushes" on rebuilds is always wise, and wait a couple flushes before a used oil analysis.

 

[wildjyoung]

I was running a combination of Mobil 5000 10W40 thinned with 1 quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. Based upon the difference between my first sample and second I think I am going to stop using Marvel Mystery Oil in every oil change. It simply diluted the 5W30 too much and caused my viscosity to drop to 7.5 cSt. If I move to a larger oil pan I may start to include it again.

Thoughts?

 

[benjamming]

wise move

 

[CourierDriver]

Its nice to see someone still has a 400 hp plus CAR. Haven't had a car like that in a long time,,Im an old dude,,my car days were the 60 s now that was a time go by.........beats all these 4 bangers on here...........amen

 

[BlazerLT]

Originally Posted By: wildjyoung
I was running a combination of Mobil 5000 10W40 thinned with 1 quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. Based upon the difference between my first sample and second I think I am going to stop using Marvel Mystery Oil in every oil change. It simply diluted the 5W30 too much and caused my viscosity to drop to 7.5 cSt. If I move to a larger oil pan I may start to include it again.

Thoughts?


Whoever told you to dilute good oil with MMO which is more or less a solvent would be someone who I would never get advice from again.

MMO is for cleaning and not as some oil additive you put in a high HP engine. NEVER use that [censored] in an oil change ever. If anything, put it in your fuel for cleaning, but never a quart in a oil change.

All you are doing is destroying your engine.

 

[Michael_P]

Quote:
If Zinc and Phosphorus are too high I have read it will "attack" some metals.


Maybe phosphorus, but I cant see how zinc alone would. It is a less noble metal than iron, copper or aluminum. I am not a metals expert, but it's strictly my rationale.