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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
People need to be reminded that the Cummins is HUGELY more expensive. Something like 8k or so.
Not that it's not worth it, but that's a lot of fuel...
It isn't worth it. The mileage advantage is pretty much gone, and the potential for catastrophic failure is just too high. I would go gas...no exceptions.
People need to be reminded that the Cummins is HUGELY more expensive. Something like 8k or so.
Not that it's not worth it, but that's a lot of fuel...
It isn't worth it. The mileage advantage is pretty much gone, and the potential for catastrophic failure is just too high. I would go gas...no exceptions.
Originally Posted By: BRZED
Mostly I'd like to know from what weight up I should go with a dually. The gasser or Diesel choice is not up for discussion on my part.
Probably somewhere around 15k lb consider a dually. The payload rating of today SRW 1 ton trucks are amazing and can easily handle up to 15k.
Mostly I'd like to know from what weight up I should go with a dually. The gasser or Diesel choice is not up for discussion on my part.
Probably somewhere around 15k lb consider a dually. The payload rating of today SRW 1 ton trucks are amazing and can easily handle up to 15k.
Originally Posted By: BRZED
Mostly I'd like to know from what weight up I should go with a dually. The gasser or Diesel choice is not up for discussion on my part.
A co-worker went through a lot of thinking about that a few years ago, and IIRC he decided that with his 12,000 lb 5th wheel he wanted dual wheels. Its not necessary, but it actually opened up the choices for tires a bit since you're not running each tire as close to its maximum load rating. He also was considering the results of a rear-tire failure while the trailer is in tow, and decided that he'd really like the redunancy so you wouldn't drop the whole 5th wheel weight onto the rim if a tire went. Conversely, you're actually a little more likely to HAVE a flat since there are more tires on the axle to fail- its just that the consequence wouldn't be as dire.
Again I think it comes back to percentage of time you'll be actively towing. He bought the rig specifically to tow, and rarely uses it for anything else. He drove is previous non-dually truck daily in addition to towing, and towed a lot less back when he had it.
Mostly I'd like to know from what weight up I should go with a dually. The gasser or Diesel choice is not up for discussion on my part.
A co-worker went through a lot of thinking about that a few years ago, and IIRC he decided that with his 12,000 lb 5th wheel he wanted dual wheels. Its not necessary, but it actually opened up the choices for tires a bit since you're not running each tire as close to its maximum load rating. He also was considering the results of a rear-tire failure while the trailer is in tow, and decided that he'd really like the redunancy so you wouldn't drop the whole 5th wheel weight onto the rim if a tire went. Conversely, you're actually a little more likely to HAVE a flat since there are more tires on the axle to fail- its just that the consequence wouldn't be as dire.
Again I think it comes back to percentage of time you'll be actively towing. He bought the rig specifically to tow, and rarely uses it for anything else. He drove is previous non-dually truck daily in addition to towing, and towed a lot less back when he had it.
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
Gas is the smartest decision in this era. Diesel is far too overpriced. I had a ford v10 gas tow truck move two junkers for me and he blasted down the highway at 70 with no issues. Diesel is dead.
The reality is that if towing really heavy, maybe >15k lb you will require a diesel. The gas engine tow capacities for the big 3 top out around 15-17k.
Gas is the smartest decision in this era. Diesel is far too overpriced. I had a ford v10 gas tow truck move two junkers for me and he blasted down the highway at 70 with no issues. Diesel is dead.
The reality is that if towing really heavy, maybe >15k lb you will require a diesel. The gas engine tow capacities for the big 3 top out around 15-17k.
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
Gas is the smartest decision in this era. Diesel is far too overpriced. I had a ford v10 gas tow truck move two junkers for me and he blasted down the highway at 70 with no issues. Diesel is dead.
Only for VW
For trucks diesel is still very much alive. Its just finally been put in the right category because there's a mid-range alternative for the first time in a long time- for most of the 90s and 00s people were using diesels for much lighter duty than really necessary, because the gassers of that era were pretty gutless for towing (with a few very expensive and gas-hogging exceptions like the Ford and Dodge v10s). Today's gas truck engines, like the 6.4 Hemi, have made a lot of strides in getting back to the level of real world torque and towing performance that the previous generation big-blocks had while maintaining the efficiency of the smallblocs. And diesel is about to finally make a properly-scaled showing in the lighter duty area too with things like the Ecodiesel and Chevy Colorado diesel.
Diesel is still the way to go if you tow really heavy, or really frequently. The latter even in the half-ton truck range- the Ecodiesel has the same tow ratings as the 5.7 in a half-ton Ram, but with a lot better efficiency (especially when worked hard).
Gas is the smartest decision in this era. Diesel is far too overpriced. I had a ford v10 gas tow truck move two junkers for me and he blasted down the highway at 70 with no issues. Diesel is dead.
Only for VW
Diesel is still the way to go if you tow really heavy, or really frequently. The latter even in the half-ton truck range- the Ecodiesel has the same tow ratings as the 5.7 in a half-ton Ram, but with a lot better efficiency (especially when worked hard).
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Diesel is still the way to go if you tow really heavy, or really frequently. The latter even in the half-ton truck range- the Ecodiesel has the same tow ratings as the 5.7 in a half-ton Ram, but with a lot better efficiency (especially when worked hard).
And then you have engines like the Ecoboost 2.7 which demolish the Ecodiesel in every area except MPG (and also most of the smaller V8's). It is close according to the EPA and while towing the EB 2.7 is a better performer than the Ecodiesel in every area except MPG. But the ED costs more than the EB and that difference buys a LOT of fuel!
Today's turbo gas engines give you all the benefits of Diesel without the headaches. I'm amazed at how well our EB tows our camper running on the cheapest 87 I can find. Yes, I get 6-10 MPG's towing our 9.5k lb trailer but on this most recent trip the spread for regular - Diesel was still quite a lot. For the guy towing daily Diesel would make sense but for towing "heavy" a turbo gas engine could do it.
All of this is a moot point since the OP is looking at 1 ton trucks and the choice is naturally aspirated gas or Diesel.
Diesel is still the way to go if you tow really heavy, or really frequently. The latter even in the half-ton truck range- the Ecodiesel has the same tow ratings as the 5.7 in a half-ton Ram, but with a lot better efficiency (especially when worked hard).
And then you have engines like the Ecoboost 2.7 which demolish the Ecodiesel in every area except MPG (and also most of the smaller V8's). It is close according to the EPA and while towing the EB 2.7 is a better performer than the Ecodiesel in every area except MPG. But the ED costs more than the EB and that difference buys a LOT of fuel!
Today's turbo gas engines give you all the benefits of Diesel without the headaches. I'm amazed at how well our EB tows our camper running on the cheapest 87 I can find. Yes, I get 6-10 MPG's towing our 9.5k lb trailer but on this most recent trip the spread for regular - Diesel was still quite a lot. For the guy towing daily Diesel would make sense but for towing "heavy" a turbo gas engine could do it.
All of this is a moot point since the OP is looking at 1 ton trucks and the choice is naturally aspirated gas or Diesel.
With modern trucks its not a HP issue, all modern trucks have plenty of HP to do whatever you should be doing with a light duty truck.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
With modern trucks its not a HP issue, all modern trucks have plenty of HP to do whatever you should be doing with a light duty truck.
And especially with a truck meant for some heavy hauling it's first about torque and second about torque and third about torque.
With modern trucks its not a HP issue, all modern trucks have plenty of HP to do whatever you should be doing with a light duty truck.
And especially with a truck meant for some heavy hauling it's first about torque and second about torque and third about torque.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Diesel is still the way to go if you tow really heavy, or really frequently. The latter even in the half-ton truck range- the Ecodiesel has the same tow ratings as the 5.7 in a half-ton Ram, but with a lot better efficiency (especially when worked hard).
And then you have engines like the Ecoboost 2.7 which demolish the Ecodiesel in every area except MPG (and also most of the smaller V8's).
You have an interesting definition of "demolish," there.
Ecoboost:
Horsepower: 325 hp @ 5,750 rpm
Torque: 375 lb-ft @ 3,000 rpm
Ecodiesel:
Horsepower:
240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Torque: 420 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
To me, I'd say the Ecoboost gets a thorough and complete butt-whipping in torque @low RPM. 55 more ft-lb at 1000 fewer RPM is a HUGE win for the diesel in a towing application. To compete with the EB, you really have to keep it pretty wound up- which it certainly can do, but how long will it last doing that?
Originally Posted By: itguy08
For the guy towing daily Diesel would make sense but for towing "heavy" a turbo gas engine could do it.
All of this is a moot point since the OP is looking at 1 ton trucks and the choice is naturally aspirated gas or Diesel.
I don't disagree, but to compete with the Ecodiesel it really takes a somewhat larger turbo gasoline engine than the 2.7 EB, as the numbers show. I liked the 3.5 EB, but I think they went too far with a 2.7.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Diesel is still the way to go if you tow really heavy, or really frequently. The latter even in the half-ton truck range- the Ecodiesel has the same tow ratings as the 5.7 in a half-ton Ram, but with a lot better efficiency (especially when worked hard).
And then you have engines like the Ecoboost 2.7 which demolish the Ecodiesel in every area except MPG (and also most of the smaller V8's).
You have an interesting definition of "demolish," there.
Ecoboost:
Horsepower: 325 hp @ 5,750 rpm
Torque: 375 lb-ft @ 3,000 rpm
Ecodiesel:
Horsepower:
240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Torque: 420 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
To me, I'd say the Ecoboost gets a thorough and complete butt-whipping in torque @low RPM. 55 more ft-lb at 1000 fewer RPM is a HUGE win for the diesel in a towing application. To compete with the EB, you really have to keep it pretty wound up- which it certainly can do, but how long will it last doing that?
Originally Posted By: itguy08
For the guy towing daily Diesel would make sense but for towing "heavy" a turbo gas engine could do it.
All of this is a moot point since the OP is looking at 1 ton trucks and the choice is naturally aspirated gas or Diesel.
I don't disagree, but to compete with the Ecodiesel it really takes a somewhat larger turbo gasoline engine than the 2.7 EB, as the numbers show. I liked the 3.5 EB, but I think they went too far with a 2.7.
It's not just about how much power you have at peak but you need a good transmission with enough gears and good programming to keep it in the power band at the right times. The Fast Lane Truck has some good towing videos of the GM trucks and the 6.4 Hemi Ram 2500 where the transmissions just don't want to downshift and keep the power up. Maybe the engineers who design it do this on purpose for engine life. With proper tuning or by manually downshifting they would have power to hold speed up the mountain instead of slowing down.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
You have an interesting definition of "demolish," there.
Ecoboost:
Horsepower: 325 hp @ 5,750 rpm
Torque: 375 lb-ft @ 3,000 rpm
Ecodiesel:
Horsepower:
240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Torque: 420 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
To me, I'd say the Ecoboost gets a thorough and complete butt-whipping in torque @low RPM. 55 more ft-lb at 1000 fewer RPM is a HUGE win for the diesel in a towing application. To compete with the EB, you really have to keep it pretty wound up- which it certainly can do, but how long will it last doing that?
The EB 2.7 is built quite stout - uses the same CGI process as the Powerstroke 6.7. It will take it.
An actual towing test:
http://www.tfltruck.com/2015/02/2015-for...peed-vs-torque/
Ecoboost doing the Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQGYJCG65E
Ecodiesel doing the Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpcJJxhvPWU
Real world towing the 2.7 outdoes the Ecodiesel in extreme conditions. It does it with less drama, less heat (the ED was running warm), and more power on tap. It does get lower MPGs though. Although the ED really doesn't do that well either.
So, yeah Demolish - the F150 does it faster, does it with more reserve power, and does it cooler.
Then you have the higher purchase, maintenance and cost of fuel (although you use less of it) of the Diesel and IMHO it just doesn't make sense
You have an interesting definition of "demolish," there.
Ecoboost:
Horsepower: 325 hp @ 5,750 rpm
Torque: 375 lb-ft @ 3,000 rpm
Ecodiesel:
Horsepower:
240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Torque: 420 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
To me, I'd say the Ecoboost gets a thorough and complete butt-whipping in torque @low RPM. 55 more ft-lb at 1000 fewer RPM is a HUGE win for the diesel in a towing application. To compete with the EB, you really have to keep it pretty wound up- which it certainly can do, but how long will it last doing that?
The EB 2.7 is built quite stout - uses the same CGI process as the Powerstroke 6.7. It will take it.
An actual towing test:
http://www.tfltruck.com/2015/02/2015-for...peed-vs-torque/
Ecoboost doing the Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQGYJCG65E
Ecodiesel doing the Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpcJJxhvPWU
Real world towing the 2.7 outdoes the Ecodiesel in extreme conditions. It does it with less drama, less heat (the ED was running warm), and more power on tap. It does get lower MPGs though. Although the ED really doesn't do that well either.
So, yeah Demolish - the F150 does it faster, does it with more reserve power, and does it cooler.
Then you have the higher purchase, maintenance and cost of fuel (although you use less of it) of the Diesel and IMHO it just doesn't make sense
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
You have an interesting definition of "demolish," there.
Ecoboost:
Horsepower: 325 hp @ 5,750 rpm
Torque: 375 lb-ft @ 3,000 rpm
Ecodiesel:
Horsepower:
240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Torque: 420 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
To me, I'd say the Ecoboost gets a thorough and complete butt-whipping in torque @low RPM. 55 more ft-lb at 1000 fewer RPM is a HUGE win for the diesel in a towing application. To compete with the EB, you really have to keep it pretty wound up- which it certainly can do, but how long will it last doing that?
The EB 2.7 is built quite stout - uses the same CGI process as the Powerstroke 6.7. It will take it.
An actual towing test:
http://www.tfltruck.com/2015/02/2015-for...peed-vs-torque/
Ecoboost doing the Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQGYJCG65E
Ecodiesel doing the Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpcJJxhvPWU
Don't get me wrong, I think diesel has been over-utilized, over-priced, and hasn't really mad economic sense for most truck owners for years now. And I agree the EB is impressive and (by the numbers and by the test) has more total horsepower than the ED- no question. But that's the flaw of the "Ike Challenge," in my opinion- it just tests the absolute max power, not the mid-range traffic light to traffic light, up to the speed limit and back down, or hold a speed and go over rolling hills capabilities of a truck. So it favors maximum output, even if it means sustained 6500 rpm the whole way, whereas a drivetrain combination that has a 'fatter middle range' would actually feel better and more capable under most real-world conditions, like driving a moderately hilly road rather than a sustained grade. I'd have to actually drive both to make that comparison, but I'd bet you a nickel that I'd have the same complaint about the EB compared to the ED that I already have about my 310-horsepower 4.7 compared to the old 230-horsepower 5.9. The 4.7 clearly wins any hillclimb or entrance ramp test, but just cruising along and taking the hills as they come the old 5.9 just takes it in stride without having to vary RPM all over the map (a good thing, since it also was stuck with just a 4-speed transmission).
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
You have an interesting definition of "demolish," there.
Ecoboost:
Horsepower: 325 hp @ 5,750 rpm
Torque: 375 lb-ft @ 3,000 rpm
Ecodiesel:
Horsepower:
240 hp @ 3,600 rpm
Torque: 420 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
To me, I'd say the Ecoboost gets a thorough and complete butt-whipping in torque @low RPM. 55 more ft-lb at 1000 fewer RPM is a HUGE win for the diesel in a towing application. To compete with the EB, you really have to keep it pretty wound up- which it certainly can do, but how long will it last doing that?
The EB 2.7 is built quite stout - uses the same CGI process as the Powerstroke 6.7. It will take it.
An actual towing test:
http://www.tfltruck.com/2015/02/2015-for...peed-vs-torque/
Ecoboost doing the Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQGYJCG65E
Ecodiesel doing the Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpcJJxhvPWU
Don't get me wrong, I think diesel has been over-utilized, over-priced, and hasn't really mad economic sense for most truck owners for years now. And I agree the EB is impressive and (by the numbers and by the test) has more total horsepower than the ED- no question. But that's the flaw of the "Ike Challenge," in my opinion- it just tests the absolute max power, not the mid-range traffic light to traffic light, up to the speed limit and back down, or hold a speed and go over rolling hills capabilities of a truck. So it favors maximum output, even if it means sustained 6500 rpm the whole way, whereas a drivetrain combination that has a 'fatter middle range' would actually feel better and more capable under most real-world conditions, like driving a moderately hilly road rather than a sustained grade. I'd have to actually drive both to make that comparison, but I'd bet you a nickel that I'd have the same complaint about the EB compared to the ED that I already have about my 310-horsepower 4.7 compared to the old 230-horsepower 5.9. The 4.7 clearly wins any hillclimb or entrance ramp test, but just cruising along and taking the hills as they come the old 5.9 just takes it in stride without having to vary RPM all over the map (a good thing, since it also was stuck with just a 4-speed transmission).
Ford 2.7L ecoboost truck wins. It has a remote control tailgate opener, great for when bad guys are chasing you and its time to dump the sand & spikes out of the bed.
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Ford 2.7L ecoboost truck wins. It has a remote control tailgate opener, great for when bad guys are chasing you and its time to dump the sand & spikes out of the bed.
On those days I'll be driving the modified Vanquish, not the truck.
Ford 2.7L ecoboost truck wins. It has a remote control tailgate opener, great for when bad guys are chasing you and its time to dump the sand & spikes out of the bed.
On those days I'll be driving the modified Vanquish, not the truck.
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Ford 2.7L ecoboost truck wins. It has a remote control tailgate opener, great for when bad guys are chasing you and its time to dump the sand & spikes out of the bed.
Plus don't forget the strange noises it makes. Go drive one, I did. Very impressive power at full throttle for a 2.7 anything, but it gasps and wheezes like an old man all the while you get that unpleasant V6 drone...
Ford 2.7L ecoboost truck wins. It has a remote control tailgate opener, great for when bad guys are chasing you and its time to dump the sand & spikes out of the bed.
Plus don't forget the strange noises it makes. Go drive one, I did. Very impressive power at full throttle for a 2.7 anything, but it gasps and wheezes like an old man all the while you get that unpleasant V6 drone...
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
Gas is the smartest decision in this era. Diesel is far too overpriced. I had a ford v10 gas tow truck move two junkers for me and he blasted down the highway at 70 with no issues. Diesel is dead.
The reality is that if towing really heavy, maybe >15k lb you will require a diesel. The gas engine tow capacities for the big 3 top out around 15-17k.
Naah. Set it up properly and a Ford V10 will tow 20k.
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
Gas is the smartest decision in this era. Diesel is far too overpriced. I had a ford v10 gas tow truck move two junkers for me and he blasted down the highway at 70 with no issues. Diesel is dead.
The reality is that if towing really heavy, maybe >15k lb you will require a diesel. The gas engine tow capacities for the big 3 top out around 15-17k.
Naah. Set it up properly and a Ford V10 will tow 20k.
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