Nobody Wants EVs, Except Government

[KrisZ]

At least that's VW's opinion.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11...ts/#more-372706

I happen to agree that with current infrastructure EV's don't make any sense either from a financial or ecological point of view, but our governments know better.


Quote:
Volkswagen has ample experience in this arena, probably more than anybody else. Ages ago, VW built a fuel-sipping 3 liter Lupo (3 liter / 100 km, 78 mpg.) The press lapped it up. The greenies creamed in their pants. Focus groups swore they’ll buy it, no matter the cost. They lied. In the showroom, the 3 Liter Lupo was a dud: Advanced materials had made it light, but also expensive.


Quote:
“The electric car is not a request from the customer, the electric car is a request from the government,” said Klingler. He also said that there is no market demand for electric cars.

Apart from making no economic sense, Klingler thinks that an electric car makes even less ecologic sense: “We have to find a solution how the electricity is produced because CO2 shouldn’t go into the air when electricity is produced,” he said. “When you buy an electric car in China, you can be sure you have 118 to 200 grams of CO2 produced per kilometer, which is twice what you have from a normal engine, so why should you do it?”



Interesting and a gutsy move by VW, I bet more automakers feel the same way, they just don't want to speak up beacuse as long as government subsidies keep flowing, they have very little to loose.

 

[4ever4d]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
At least that's VW's opinion.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11...ts/#more-372706

I happen to agree that with current infrastructure EV's don't make any sense either from a financial or ecological point of view, but our governments know better.


Quote:
Volkswagen has ample experience in this arena, probably more than anybody else. Ages ago, VW built a fuel-sipping 3 liter Lupo (3 liter / 100 km, 78 mpg.) The press lapped it up. The greenies creamed in their pants. Focus groups swore they’ll buy it, no matter the cost. They lied. In the showroom, the 3 Liter Lupo was a dud: Advanced materials had made it light, but also expensive.


Quote:
“The electric car is not a request from the customer, the electric car is a request from the government,” said Klingler. He also said that there is no market demand for electric cars.

Apart from making no economic sense, Klingler thinks that an electric car makes even less ecologic sense: “We have to find a solution how the electricity is produced because CO2 shouldn’t go into the air when electricity is produced,” he said. “When you buy an electric car in China, you can be sure you have 118 to 200 grams of CO2 produced per kilometer, which is twice what you have from a normal engine, so why should you do it?”



Interesting and a gutsy move by VW, I bet more automakers feel the same way, they just don't want to speak up beacuse as long as government subsidies keep flowing, they have very little to loose.
I agree 200% with VW on this issue.Personally i would rather walk!Not to step on anyones toes but for me this goes for hybrid also.

 

[Torino]

You mean that the Govt. (Canadian or U.S.)does'nt know what they are talking about? Shocking. John--Las Vegas.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: Torino
You mean that the Govt. (Canadian or U.S.)does'nt know what they are talking about? Shocking. John--Las Vegas.


LOL! x2

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Torino
You mean that the Govt. (Canadian or U.S.)does'nt know what they are talking about? Shocking. John--Las Vegas.


The fact that governments don't know what they're talking about is not shocking, but for some reason they are trying to force EV into the market place at the expanse of the taxpayers, with no evidence that EV's are greener or help save the environment and that nobody publically questions these motives is shocking.

 

[LS2JSTS]

If the Feds start issueing Nuclear Power plant permits enmass...I'd be fully behind the push to EV vehicles.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[J. A. Rizzo]

Maybe VW is just upset that the German government doesn't have the guts to make a bold move to spur an industry that will help keep its automotive industry at or near the front edge of technology to help ensure its economic and engineering edge into the future. If the US doesn't do it, the Japanese will. As fuel prices rise, the demand will only go up, especially if there are more BP-like disasters that further stain the reputation of the oil industry. If there were no customers for it, why would the Prius be so popular? What country would you rather see lead the industry?

 

[D.K.]

If you believe that crude oil is a limited resource, EV's make a lot of sense. I am one the those people that believe that crude oil is a limited resource. I also agree that we need to start building Nuclear Power plants. Wind and Solar will never be baseload generators in my lifetime(I am 40).


I also believe gas taxes should be tripled or more instantly, that would do two things, conservation would begin immediately, and our roadway infrastructure could be repaired without borrowing more money.

Dave

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
If the Feds start issueing Nuclear Power plant permits enmass...I'd be fully behind the push to EV vehicles.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.



Exactly.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: D.K.
If you believe that crude oil is a limited resource, EV's make a lot of sense. I am one the those people that believe that crude oil is a limited resource. I also agree that we need to start building Nuclear Power plants. Wind and Solar will never be baseload generators in my lifetime(I am 40).


I also believe gas taxes should be tripled or more instantly, that would do two things, conservation would begin immediately, and our roadway infrastructure could be repaired without borrowing more money.

Dave



Dave: I disagree with your second paragraph. I don't want to make this thread political but the government collects plenty of taxes already. It's how they spend it that's the problem.

 

[J. A. Rizzo]

Originally Posted By: pbm
Dave: I disagree with your second paragraph. I don't want to make this thread political but the government collects plenty of taxes already. It's how they spend it that's the problem.


LOL, are you kidding? It's already political, and if you didn't want to make it that way, why did you?

 

[KrisZ]

Quote:
If you believe that crude oil is a limited resource, EV's make a lot of sense.


How so, isn't the electricity produced, to power these EV's, from a limited source as well? If anything it is more wasteful as we are burning coal to produce electricity, which requires a lot of energy, has huge losses in transportation and still pollutes. I have not seen any study that would show that burning the amounts of coal needed to replace gas would produce fewer pollutants. Everybody just seems to focus on the tailpipe emissions. Also if you just happen to use less oil than anticipated, you can store it for later, electricity is just wasted meaning the coal is already burned and pollution created.

Everybody talks about nuclear power being the solution to the EV problem, it's not as clean and free as everybody thinks it is. What are we going to do with all the nuclear waste and gray water?

There is no silver bullet here; gas is here to stay because it makes sense not because it doesn’t.

 

[AuthorEditor]

I'm not so sure that "Nobody wants EVs." Unless you think GE is a "nobody." I suspect the first buyers will be corporate fleets, governments, etc., with urban commuters not too far behind. Just the low-level of emissions from the cars would be attractive for some use like say municipal car fleets in Los Angeles or New York. Sure, they're not for everyone or every use, but they make lots of sense for certain uses.

 

[Spazdog]

There's always the hydrogen fuel cell.... except hydrogen is still being made from natural gas. Why not just make the car a CNG? That technology already exists. CNG powered vehicles are clean and carbon deposits are virtually non-existant inside CNG powered vehicles. Of course there is the question of safety with a compressed combustible gas on board and range is short.

 

[A_Harman]

People are being bombarded daily with propaganda about how wonderful EV's are. Many of them will flock to dealers to buy EV's with the help of government subsidies and with visions of $2 "fillups" in their heads. Then wait 6 months to a couple of years.

The EV customers will get tired of looking for a place to plug in after every 15 miles that they drive. Then the battery pack will die, and they will be stuck with a "car" that will cost more to repair than they could sell it for. They will start to pine for the good old days when they could fuel their car for 5 minutes, then drive for 5 hours, not the other way around. Then the class-action lawsuits will start flying, and the EV market will die.

 

[SteveSRT8]

interesting scenario, plausible too!

EV's are political. They make no sense for many of the drivers on the road.

Some of the inner city types may be able to live within their limited ranges.

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Also if you just happen to use less oil than anticipated, you can store it for later, electricity is just wasted meaning the coal is already burned and pollution created.


That isn't true. If the electricity demand is less, then less will be produced. If my electric meter moves less, I will pay for less. And so on. Not an EV fan, but this logic makes no sense. The power company is not going to generate a huge excess of power that won't be used.

I am generally not in favor of EVs, but rather of smaller ICEs, for the time being those make the most sense.

One area where EVs may be useful is in areas with smog problems like LA. Granted, it exports the pollution elsewhere, but hopefully that elsewhere isn't somewhere that is surrounded by mountains on three sides and subject to ocean fog.

[edit]one other thing. The reason that hybrids are somewhat attractive to me is that they can re-capture energy from regenerative braking. That energy otherwise only ends up as heat creation in the normal, non-regenerative braking process. Granted, it's not the most efficient method of recapturing energy but it's better than nothing.

 

[Shannow]

I work in the power industry, and don't beleive for a second that EVs or Hydrogen from electrity/NG are an answer to anything, and yes, I believe that oil is finite.

VW have an excellent point that if EVs are supposed to be good for the environment, then the cycle should pollute less than using petroleum...it makes basic common sense, and is atypical of a typical power grid.

Coal and Nukes should make electricity, to keep the lights on, and power high efficiency heat pumps, electric motors, smelters etc.

Petroleum should be used for mobile (transport) and remote power, not large scale stationary power generation.

Natural gas should be reticulated for heating, and not used for large scale stationary aps...it can also be used for transport quite successfully.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: J. A. Rizzo
Originally Posted By: pbm
Dave: I disagree with your second paragraph. I don't want to make this thread political but the government collects plenty of taxes already. It's how they spend it that's the problem.


LOL, are you kidding? It's already political, and if you didn't want to make it that way, why did you?




I should have said "I don't want to get the thread locked for saying something political, but...."

 

[sciphi]

EV's do make sense for urban fleets with a known route and a few bases to return the cars to every night. Maybe even for suburban commuters within 20-30 miles of work. Use the EV as the commute-a-box while the petroleum weekend car sits at home for long trips and emergencies that need range immediately.

If I were in the EV target market, I'd look at one for a commuter box. Alas, my mileage can be 60-120 highway-speed miles a day, going up/down lots of hills. Or the polar opposite of an EV's use: using minimal energy while creeping along in a 10 mph traffic jam.