New Suzuki King Quad

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Originally Posted By: Hitzy
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Here is an interesting link with what seems like some valid testing on auto vs. motorcycle oils. I may have to rethink what I believe.

http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html


That article is ancient....SG PCMO?
You can look in the used oil analysis section and see how some conventional oils still shear today in a certain engine, and the syns stay in grade for the most part. I don't know anyone that uses dino bike oil....dino HDEO or diesel sure, but most bike oils are syns these days.
I'd like to see a modern test like that in a few different bikes, where 10w40/0w40 syn PCMO was up against 10w40/0w40 bike oils and see if there really was a difference in shearing, exteded OCI, and wear metals.

Older yes, but not invalid when it comes to the point of viscosity breakdown of auto vs. cycle oil in a motorcycle engine. May even be more to the point since oils are probably slightly better now (but not much). I didn't realize that viscosity breakdown wasn't even an issue. It woke me up being that besides friction modifiers, and how they relate to a wet clutch, my main concern (viscosity loss) is not a concern.
And I will have to disagree with you on the synthetic comment....I know many fellas that use conventional in motorcycles/watercraft/ATV's.
 
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"While not absolute, try and use an oil designed for motorcycle/ATV use...."

Must have shares in the "Eye of Newt" oil company.

I love guys like this. Probably has a stack of ATV magazines and a buddy of his knows another guy who had an ATV once.

Newsflash bud.... Experience never goes out of style. Neither does a good quality HDEO.
 
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
BTW, you should look at VOA and not UOA for silicon in motorcycle oil. Should I tell you why?

Oh yes wise one would you?

and i have, it's the same or close,whats your next argument going to be? and i said a additive that could hurt a engine.

last time i check my oil level im my quad i dont remember any oil foam blasting out at me,hmmmm

and guess what not only a HDEO works one can use Mobil 1 15w50 also thats a good choice with no issues at all


So the only thing you got for proof is that you checked your oil and also compared used oil analysis? First you said that it is more, now it is just the same or close, which one is it really? If the difference in silicon level is 10, does it matter whether it is 0-vs-10 or 10-vs-20? An additive that could hurt an engine or the lack thereof, see the different?

Here it is one more time since you did not seem to understand it the first time "you will never find HDEO or any automotive oil in the winning circle of any professional motorcycle races for a reason". The proof is in the record book and not by checking your oil and reading used oil analysis.
 
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"you will never find HDEO or any automotive oil in the winning circle of any professional motorcycle races for a reason"

...one reason is called sponsorship...Mobil1 motorcyle racing oil has "Racing" right on the package...same decals profesional racers put on their bikes...that kind of marketing angle is aimed at people that believe that for 2x, 3x, 4x the price you are getting that kind of performance to win races. Perhaps it might...for the elite high calibre racers and their machines. Since none of us fall into that category why not use the oil that gets 99.99% of the performance with the absolutely huge mark-ups.

Oils like Rotella are aimed at a different market, semi-trucks that have 40qt sumps for hundreds of thousand of trucks, outselling by volume all those super duper racing oils by a long shot...that same oil just happens to have all the certifications that our non-to-semi professional rides require. So I'll take the cheaper HDEO and have my engine last just as long or longer than any other out there and much much longer than any racers engines short lifespan and use the extra money to buy whatever I want. Those that buy the high dollar oil are just what Mobil needs...more advertising....
 
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"you will never find HDEO or any automotive oil in the winning circle of any professional motorcycle races for a reason"

You won't find a statement much more naive than that. This guy has taken hook, line and sinker....

We shouldn't dissuade him from buying the designer oil. Someone has to keep them in business.

Can you imagine a race being sponsored by an expensive racing oil company having machines showing up with "Shell Rotella" decals on their machines????????

I've use Rotella 15W40 in ATVs and motorcycles for many, many years with no oil related problems at all. However, according to the high end oil proponents, that doesn't matter. Experience means nothing. It's the lab reports that matter.

How dense is that?
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
BTW, you should look at VOA and not UOA for silicon in motorcycle oil. Should I tell you why?

Oh yes wise one would you?

and i have, it's the same or close,whats your next argument going to be? and i said a additive that could hurt a engine.

last time i check my oil level im my quad i dont remember any oil foam blasting out at me,hmmmm

and guess what not only a HDEO works one can use Mobil 1 15w50 also thats a good choice with no issues at all


So the only thing you got for proof is that you checked your oil and also compared used oil analysis? First you said that it is more, now it is just the same or close, which one is it really? If the difference in silicon level is 10, does it matter whether it is 0-vs-10 or 10-vs-20? An additive that could hurt an engine or the lack thereof, see the different?

Here it is one more time since you did not seem to understand it the first time "you will never find HDEO or any automotive oil in the winning circle of any professional motorcycle races for a reason". The proof is in the record book and not by checking your oil and reading used oil analysis.

The proof you don't seem to be understanding who knows why is millions of riders out there use a HDEO even thick PCMO like Mobil 1 15w50 every single day with out issues in there MC and ATV, the oil works it has the proper additives well built and has nothing in it that will hurt wet clutches or anything in a engine period!

Mc oil's are marketing nothing more and your silicon argument is a joke do think if there was any merit behind that MC rides would be seeing that problem by now don't you think.

any way i'm done going round and round with you on this subject it's been proven and your argument is going nowhere.
 
Originally Posted By: boraticus
"While not absolute, try and use an oil designed for motorcycle/ATV use...."

Must have shares in the "Eye of Newt" oil company.

I love guys like this. Probably has a stack of ATV magazines and a buddy of his knows another guy who had an ATV once.

Newsflash bud.... Experience never goes out of style. Neither does a good quality HDEO.


So what 'kind' of guy am I that upsets you so much and causes such strong insults? Lol....you need to relax. A question was asked....and I expressed my opinion. I'm so sorry if that upset your world. You make assumptions and attempt to paint a picture of me in an uncivil manner. Strange....especially given that you are a Canadian (supposed to be so civil and all).
And no....I don't view silly ATV mags nor do I have no experience with ATV's.......I've only owned four of them. I guess that's not enough though.
One last thing....my name is not 'bud'.....and I'd like to know if you sport a mullet?
 
Nope. No mullet here. But considering your interest, here's a link so that you may indulge in your attraction to the the 'do.
http://www.mulletsgalore.com/

Enjoy.

I'm hardly upset. I and many other mechanically inclined participants get tired of the snake oil salesmen trying to influence people to throw their money out the window on unnecessarily expensive lubrication.

What's annoying with people like you is not so much your opinion, as much as your self proclaimed authority on lubrication. Have you actually looked at any of the oil analysis for motorcycle specific oils? Are you aware that numerous, if not most motorcycle branded oils are mediocre at best and pale in comparison to HDEO?

Just because you "owned" four ATVs does not necessarily mean you have much mechanical experience. Not hardly. I've seen plenty of people who own ATVs and don't know where to find the battery or spark plug.

When you dismiss the experience and knowledge of "back yard mechanics" as being inferior to your opinion, you obviously are being offensive yourself.

I've got many, many years of working on motorcycles, ATVS, OPE and just about anything else that needs fixing. I'm a "Go To" person when people need mechanical things repaired. I fix stuff for people for free unless purchasing of parts is involved. I do their work because I like to. I make sure their stuff is properly repaired have the best lube for the money in them when they get it back.

I build motorcycles for a hobby. I ride motorcycles and ATVs for pleasure. I presently own eight motorcycles and two liquid cooled ATVs. I ran two Suzuki air cooled ATVs for more than 25 years using nothing but HDEO. Never had a problem. But, according to you, that doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah, right? I've never spent a dime on designer oil and never will.

This reply isn't so much for you as it is for people looking for straight answers to their lubrication requirements.

Any decent HDEO will be excellent in ATVs and motorcycles. There is no need to pay big bucks for snake oils.
 
Hardly upset? Then why so nasty in reply? I would hope that your every day discussions with folks of differing opinions aren't as pointed and rude.
And for the record...I do not travel from town to town in a small wagon selling 'snake oil' to the unsuspecting. As a matter of fact if you would have read ALL of my posts in this thread you would have noticed one posting in particular where I had admitted reading something that may change my 'snake oil' opinion on motorcycle lubrication. But you didn't bother to mention that at all. Attempts at bullying seem more suited to your style. And I never introduced myself as a 'self-proclaimed' authority. I always state that my posts are based on mostly opinion. Besides all that....and no matter how many bikes, ATV's, and other vehicles you've built, it still comes down to opinion. And if somebody wants to buy a high quality oil for an ATV or motorcycle (whether you call it snake oil or not), what difference does a few bucks make when we are only talking a very few quarts???
Now go back and re-read my posts....you may discover something about the 'type' I am.
 
Ambient temp plays a factor as well. No problem using cheap 15w40 HDEO in Florida year round, Canadian winters that see -30C and colder require something a little bit better, and synthetics flow much better in the cold.
Here anyway, the options are limited for a GOOD SYN winter oil that is wet clutch compatible. Rotella T6 5w40 is a good oil and priced right, but is still going to be pretty thick in the winter. There is a 0w40 Rotella syn available here, but if you search around, there is a Shell rep that says it's not recommended for ATV or bike use as it has high VII's and will shear a lot.
0w40 Amsoil ATV oil is about as good as it gets for those cold winter mornings when we use our ATV's to plow the laneways. Sure it's expensive, but in a 3 quart sump and annual changes, who cares? If I lived in Florida, 15w40 HDEO year round makes the most sense. For me in Canada, Amsoil ATV 0w40 makes the most sense.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Hardly upset? Then why so nasty in reply? I would hope that your every day discussions with folks of differing opinions aren't as pointed and rude.
And for the record...I do not travel from town to town in a small wagon selling 'snake oil' to the unsuspecting. As a matter of fact if you would have read ALL of my posts in this thread you would have noticed one posting in particular where I had admitted reading something that may change my 'snake oil' opinion on motorcycle lubrication. But you didn't bother to mention that at all. Attempts at bullying seem more suited to your style. And I never introduced myself as a 'self-proclaimed' authority. I always state that my posts are based on mostly opinion. Besides all that....and no matter how many bikes, ATV's, and other vehicles you've built, it still comes down to opinion. And if somebody wants to buy a high quality oil for an ATV or motorcycle (whether you call it snake oil or not), what difference does a few bucks make when we are only talking a very few quarts???
Now go back and re-read my posts....you may discover something about the 'type' I am.


Don't get your mullet all in a tizzy now.

When you've finally come to the conclusion that you don't need to spend big bucks on unnecessarily expensive oil, you can put some of the money you save toward getting your Mississippi Mud Flap trimmed.

All in good humour now....
 
Originally Posted By: boraticus


When you've finally come to the conclusion that you don't need to spend big bucks on unnecessarily expensive oil, you can put some of the money you save toward getting your Mississippi Mud Flap trimmed.


Hey if you want to use bar oil on foam filter and HDEO in your bike and eat T-bone instead of rib eye steaks then so be it. But, I will take the advices of manufacturers and professional racers and professional engine builders over shade tree mechanics and weekend racers any day. BTW, Shell does make specific motorcycle oil but it is way outside of your price range. Shell even give you a choice of more power or longevity in their motorcycle racing oils.
 
Originally Posted By: daman

The proof you don't seem to be understanding who knows why is millions of riders out there use a HDEO even thick PCMO like Mobil 1 15w50 every single day with out issues in there MC and ATV, the oil works it has the proper additives well built and has nothing in it that will hurt wet clutches or anything in a engine period!

Mc oil's are marketing nothing more and your silicon argument is a joke do think if there was any merit behind that MC rides would be seeing that problem by now don't you think.


Millions of riders??????? Hahaha, proof please??? Or are you just guessing??? The number of people that use HDEO oil in their bike/ATV is very very small if you look at what people are using all over the world. Most of the people on BITOG are well informed and willing to take a risk with their oil. Most of the people in the world don't want to take a chance especially if their livelihood depend on it. Millions of smokers still think there is nothing wrong with cigarette smoking, imagine that.

Silicon is not the only thing that differentiate car oil from motorcycle oils. You were asking for an ingredient and I gave you one, castor is another. Motorcycle oil composition is a secret and no manufacturer is going to tell you what it is. Clutch compatibility is not the only thing different in motorcycle oil. HDEO oil is not tested at ultra high rpm nor viscosity retention with wet clutch.

If all you do is light commute with your bike then any thing will work for a while, even with no name dino car oil.
 
Wet clutch ATVs/Bikes manuals consistantly say not to use anything that is labelled as "Energy Conserving" in them. That is pretty much your xW20 and xW30 weight PCMO oils. xW40 and xW50 weight PCMO will not have the "Energy Conserving" stamp on it, an can be used with no harm. Diesel oils in any weight do not have the "Energy Conserving" stamp of approval either and can be used with no harm.
Bike/ATV specific oil can be used with no harm :)
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: boraticus


When you've finally come to the conclusion that you don't need to spend big bucks on unnecessarily expensive oil, you can put some of the money you save toward getting your Mississippi Mud Flap trimmed.


Hey if you want to use bar oil on foam filter and HDEO in your bike and eat T-bone instead of rib eye steaks then so be it. But, I will take the advices of manufacturers and professional racers and professional engine builders over shade tree mechanics and weekend racers any day. BTW, Shell does make specific motorcycle oil but it is way outside of your price range. Shell even give you a choice of more power or longevity in their motorcycle racing oils.


Some are born to lead others are born to be led. It appears you subscribe to the latter.
 
And you've made it rather obvious that you see yourself as a 'leader' for using HDEO in a motorcycle while others are somehow just 'followers'.
It must make you feel secure to marginalize people that way. Don't you think though that JUST MAYBE another person could have a valid point or opinion?
As for your 'leadership'.....one thing to keep in mind is that to be a true leader, one must inspire. I see none of that from you.
 
If I may, I'd like to address your points:

"And you've made it rather obvious that you see yourself as a 'leader' for using HDEO in a motorcycle while others are somehow just 'followers'."

Having the ability to gather and weigh information from a variety of sources and making a reasonable decision vs. reading an advertisement and blindly following, is a display of independent thinking. Bucking the "herd" mentality more or less. I'm not easily mislead.

"It must make you feel secure to marginalize people that way. Don't you think though that JUST MAYBE another person could have a valid point or opinion?"

Some may view my comments as marginalizing, others may view it as telling it like it is. The truth is not always painless. When an opinion is not much more than the recital of an oil company's promise, or a pledge of support for their claims, it's not really that much of an opinion, now is it?


"As for your 'leadership'.....one thing to keep in mind is that to be a true leader, one must inspire. I see none of that from you."

You'd probably be inspired if I were supporting your point of view.
 
Off topic...yet if I don't respond I feel that I will miss a chance at enlightening you.
This statement....."Having the ability to gather and weigh information from a variety of sources and making a reasonable decision vs. reading an advertisement and blindly following, is a display of independent thinking. Bucking the "herd" mentality more or less. I'm not easily mislead." You are making asumptions that those that come to a different conclusion are inferior to you in an ability to make a decision. You label anything other than your opinion as being 'blind'....and other such insults. Pity how arrogance needs to be a part of your responses. That generally tells a lot about your personality and ego.
This one is also telling....."Some may view my comments as marginalizing, others may view it as telling it like it is. The truth is not always painless. When an opinion is not much more than the recital of an oil company's promise, or a pledge of support for their claims, it's not really that much of an opinion, now is it?" More arrogant assumptions and rude insults. You simply believe that only you (and others that use HDEO) are 100% correct and that all others are somehow ignorant or puppets of an oil company (the same oil companies that sell your much vaunted HDEO no doubt).
Lastly, this statement...."You'd probably be inspired if I were supporting your point of view." No, not really. But I will tell you this....you don't persuade by insults, put-downs, and rude slights. To lead or inspire is akin to a steel chain. Ever try to push a chain? Doesn't work my friend. One must PULL a chain for the links to follow. What you do is PUSH.
Perhaps since we are way off point here it would be best to PM me for further 'discussion'.
 
Originally Posted By: boraticus

Some are born to lead others are born to be led. It appears you subscribe to the latter.


And some like you just ignored all the technical facts as long as you can save a buck. Two US Presidents believed in me enough to commission me to Army CW4 so I really don't need any endorsement from shade tree mechanics or bench racers.
 
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Originally Posted By: Hitzy
Wet clutch ATVs/Bikes manuals consistantly say not to use anything that is labelled as "Energy Conserving" in them. That is pretty much your xW20 and xW30 weight PCMO oils. xW40 and xW50 weight PCMO will not have the "Energy Conserving" stamp on it, an can be used with no harm. Diesel oils in any weight do not have the "Energy Conserving" stamp of approval either and can be used with no harm.
Bike/ATV specific oil can be used with no harm :)


Be warned that no Energy Conserving label does not mean that there is no friction modifier. The symbol on the bottle means that it has been officially certified. There are 40WT oil and higher that are energy conserving (i.e. containing friction modifier) such as Liqui Moly but not certified.

http://www.liquimoly.co.uk/index.php?p=products_oil&cat=oil

http://eolcs.api.org/FindBrandByViscosity.asp?Viscosity=15W-40

http://eolcs.api.org/FindBrandByViscosity.asp?Viscosity=15W-50
 
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