New S&W 66 vs old ones

[Robenstein]

Aside from the annoying locking mechanism S&W slaps on almost everything, have any of you S&W aficionados handled the new model 66 guns that came out 2 years ago to compare them to the old k guns? In your opinion did they fix any of the shortcomings of the old 66/19 K frames? I know you could crack forcing cones on the old ones by shooting lightweight high power 357 loads with them over time.

I always loved the balance and feel of the old 19/66 4 inch guns versus the L framed 586/686 guns. Plus I don't really dig fully lugged barrels, preferring the aesthetics of the partially lugged ones.

 

[bunnspecial]

I'm with you on the lugged barrels

In any case, I've handled a new 66 although I haven't shot one.

S&W advertises a "two piece barrel" on them. This is constructed in the vein of Dan Wessons, where the barrel is held under tension by an outer sheath. In theory, it should provide better accuracy, although the tension is not adjustable like on a DW. Also, it does disturb the lines of the gun slightly. It's nothing dramatic, but if you're familiar with 19s/66s you'll notice it.

The gun also has an additional lock at the base of the crane(like X-frames), which should make it stronger although this is not really a known weak point on K frames.

The barrel DOES eliminate the flat at the bottom of the forcing cone. This should take care of the infamous forcing cone crack on K-frame 357s.

It has been a while, but I think the example I looked at had an EDM barrel. In fact, I believe this is the reason why I decided to not buy the one I looked at. My experience with a couple of other EDM barrels is that they lead like crazy, and I shoot so much lead in 357 Mag that it's a deal killer for me. My 629 has an EDM barrel, and I've had to quit shooting lead in it for that very reason.

 

[Robenstein]

yeah S&W has been using that tech( I think the use the similar ECM method) for about 20 years now to rifle barrels on their wheelguns. I have heard people sometimes have major leading issues due to a rough bore. Lapping tends to fix that, although that should not be necessary on a new S&W to be honest. That is something you expect from a Taurus or Rossi level gun.

 

[bunnspecial]

Truth be told, I'm not sure if "roughness" has anything to do with it. My EDM barrels have an almost mirror like finish. I've actually heard the opposite-the EDM barrels are so smooth that the bullet lube can't properly wet them so you end up with lead on steel rather than the lead skating on a coat of lube.

This would seem to have some credence as I can cut down leading dramatically if I tumble lube my bullets in liquid Alox, although it's still more work than just shooting out of a barrel with cut rifling.

Also, as another point I've shot barrels with rust pits and they don't lead anything like these EDM barrels do. The pits may "catch" a bit of lead but it brushes right out-in EDM barrels its almost like the lead is soldered to them.

I think S&W has made a few competition-oriented guns in the last few years with cut rifling, but EDM is used on the vast majority of their guns.

 

[Robenstein]

Opinions vary but I have seen some rough rifling pictures out there of ecm bores. Oddly the phenomenon is not as reported in the early guns using that method. Perhaps a slip in standard in Springfield MA. Anyways, lapping the bore traditionally or via fire lapping seems to improve the leading situation significantly. Using the Kimber method for break in also helps and that is done with a dry bore and jacketed rounds. Others use moly treatments for their bore or lubed bullets.

Most of my shooting is going to likely be with FMJ ammo anyways.

 

[Mr_Joe]

I have both old & newer, either can be fine. A few of my older favorites are a 586 and my 686, both smooth as warmed butter. I like my newer Model 60 too, and one or two more 'with the lock'.

I do agree, the lock is about useless for most owners.

 

[bunnspecial]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Opinions vary but I have seen some rough rifling pictures out there of ecm bores. Oddly the phenomenon is not as reported in the early guns using that method. Perhaps a slip in standard in Springfield MA. Anyways, lapping the bore traditionally or via fire lapping seems to improve the leading situation significantly. Using the Kimber method for break in also helps and that is done with a dry bore and jacketed rounds. Others use moly treatments for their bore or lubed bullets.

Most of my shooting is going to likely be with FMJ ammo anyways.




I've owned a few EDM guns, but the only one I have now is my pre-lock 629 Mountain Gun. There have been a couple of production runs of Mountain Guns, and I think that the EDM barrel and MIM action without the lock makes mine from the '98 or '99 run.

In any case, like I said the barrel is mirror polished and it also leads like crazy. The only other one I've recently was a 438(airweight "bodyguard" J frame) and I don't remember the bore being particularly bad on it either.

As much as I love S&W as a company, they definitely have cut some corners in recent years and I don't doubt that they're letting out some bad bores. It's really a shame, too, for one of the oldest handgun companies in continuous existence. Have you seen the "wood" quality on some of the new products? When it comes to pre-1960s guns, I like to poke fun at Colt for using wood that looks like they cut it out of an old pallet while S&W has always used beautiful wood. Colt got a lot better in the 1960s(the rosewood targets on my Trooper 357 are a beautiful thing to behold) and S&W kept things going through the 90s with good quality Goncalo Alves. I've seen better looking plastic immitation wood grips than some of the recent S&Ws, though.

 

[Robenstein]

One thing that rubs me the wrong way is that you can only get a square butt on the classic line now (yes there are conversion grips for round butts but they look a little off to me)...and the classic line also has the annoying lock.

I guess with shrinking of the market share for wheelguns they are looking to make money via cutting corners and having a wider profit per unit, than making money by moving lots of revolvers with a more modest profit.

 

[bunnspecial]

I've never been a fan of round butt revolvers in anything but snub barrel lengths, but you're right that S&W has essential gone to them wholesale.

I've had some funny looks when I tell people that S&W has more or less dropped the Model of 1905 in favor of the Model of 1902

but at least K frames it's true. The only round butt K-frame I have now is a model of 1899.

Conversion grips have never looked or felt right to me either. I did give in an put a set of Pachmayr conversion Decelerators on my 629s because I couldn't stand the factory Hogues(and its saying something that I'd actually choose to put Pachs on a gun) but I'd MUCH rather have the gun in a square butt frame.

Some of the recent factory moves(if you consider recent to be the past 20 years) has pretty well solidified my decision to stick with pre-1982 guns wherever possible.

 

[Robenstein]

If I had the back account, I would be doing much the same for wheelguns. I really would like a nice Colt Trooper (my mom carried them as a deputy back in the late 60's.

Right now all I have is a late 70's Ruger Security Six 6 inch blued model.

 

[bunnspecial]

My Colt Trooper 357 is probably my favorite 357 Mag. Just avoid the Mk III and Mark V models-you want the original V spring gun.

One of the guns I keep trolling gun shows for is the Colt 3-5-7. It's one of those guns that I have to be careful how I phrase asking about it, as a lot of folks don't even know it exists and assume when you're asking about it that you're just some dummy who wants any Colt chambered in 357 Mag.

The 3-5-7 is basically an Officer's Model Match but built on the updated I-frame(frame mounted firing pin) and obviously chambered in 357 Mag. It is a V-spring action and finished to the same level as the Python. It's a beautiful piece that Colt discontinued after the Python was introduced. The Trooper 357 is basically a 3-5-7(albeit usually in 4") with a matte finish rather than the Royal Blue of the 3-5-7 and Python. The closest analogy is between the S&W Model 27 and 28.

Fortunately, 3-5-7s are "under the radar" enough that they haven't seen price inflation to the point of Pythons. The Pythons(along with all the snake guns) are, IMO, getting crazy. Good 3-5-7s can be had for well under $1k, although they are not that common and again a lot of seller don't even realize what they are when they have them.

I had the opportunity about a year back to buy a stainless Python with a 6" barrel that was made after the "official" end of production so was probably ordered through the custom shop and built with left over parts. It came with a test target dated to sometime in '01, and as best as I could tell was unfired outside the factory. It was $2K, which honestly is a steal for a Python in that condition although the very late guns don't carry the same value as the earlier ones. I still wish I'd found a way to buy it.

The store had bought out a private Colt collection, and also had an unfired Magnum Carry for $1200. That's another "want" gun for me and is actually quite scarce, although again I didn't buy it. Not too much longer, I saw a well used one walking around a gun show for $1K-it made the new in box one look like a bargain.

 

[Reg# 43897]

I love my 4" Model 19. Of all of my guns, it's in my top two (an un-issued No. 4 .303, everything matching is my top gun) & I really love a K-frame. As nice as L-frame's are, I just cannot seem to get into them. Have a neat J-frame that I love but, seriously, an airweight pumping out 'FBI loads' is fine if you're in the act of saving your life but as far as it pertains to having fun at the range? No, not so much..! Would love a Mountain Gun. A friend has a .41 Redhawk which is really cool. A Model 57 w/ a 5" tube would be really interesting.

Carried a 5" Model 10 for years in classic profile which may explain my appreciation of K-Frames & the slightly odd 5" bbl length...

John.

 

[bunnspecial]

I have a 4" 19-3 also-I actually hunted for the "right one" for a while. My big thing was that I wanted a P&R gun(19-4 or earlier) and it took me a little while to find the "right" condition-not beat to heck but also not perfect. It's a great gun-I carry mine all the time, although I have to admit that I enjoy shooting the 27-2 or 28-2 at the range.

I too consider 5" to be the "perfect" barrel length. I've had a handful of M&Ps and Colt PPSs in 5" and to me it's almost a natural carry length. Plus, it just looks "right" on a lot of guns, including M&Ps/pencil barrel 10s.

One of the guns on my "one of these days" list is a 27-2 in 5". By the books they're fairly common, but in the real world they don't come up for sale and bring a huge premium. I have some fun with those at gun shows. Not too long ago, I spotted a 27 with a seller I've dealt with a lot and he "thought" it was a 5". Since I don't walk around gun shows with a ruler, I pulled out the next best thing-a $100 bill-and determined that it was a 6". He offered to get out his hacksaw for me

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Reg# 43897
I love my 4" Model 19. Of all of my guns, it's in my top two (an un-issued No. 4 .303, everything matching is my top gun) & I really love a K-frame. As nice as L-frame's are, I just cannot seem to get into them. Have a neat J-frame that I love but, seriously, an airweight pumping out 'FBI loads' is fine if you're in the act of saving your life but as far as it pertains to having fun at the range? No, not so much..! Would love a Mountain Gun. A friend has a .41 Redhawk which is really cool. A Model 57 w/ a 5" tube would be really interesting.

Carried a 5" Model 10 for years in classic profile which may explain my appreciation of K-Frames & the slightly odd 5" bbl length...

John.
I have a 4 inch 19-4. It's really hard to beat the overall package of a 19.