New Prestone Coolant? Pics
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Motorking,
Thanks for posting here. Not trying to go between you and other members here defending Peak, can you tell us if Prestone sell any concentrated coolant that automaker only sells in 50/50 form?
Personally I don't care whether Prestone has newer formula or more OEM business or not, because it really doesn't do me any good if they are different from what Toyota/Honda/BMW/Ford/Mazda/Nissan make and sell and I personally prefer not to take chances. However if I would like to do flushes (say I just replaced a head gasket) I would like to find something like the OEM brand (made by Recochem) specific coolant and use distill water with it. Recochem's OEM brand Toyota pink coolant is still not identical (it is more like the Toyota red coolant).
That's not too much to ask for is it?
Thanks for posting here. Not trying to go between you and other members here defending Peak, can you tell us if Prestone sell any concentrated coolant that automaker only sells in 50/50 form?
Personally I don't care whether Prestone has newer formula or more OEM business or not, because it really doesn't do me any good if they are different from what Toyota/Honda/BMW/Ford/Mazda/Nissan make and sell and I personally prefer not to take chances. However if I would like to do flushes (say I just replaced a head gasket) I would like to find something like the OEM brand (made by Recochem) specific coolant and use distill water with it. Recochem's OEM brand Toyota pink coolant is still not identical (it is more like the Toyota red coolant).
That's not too much to ask for is it?
http://www.google.com/patents/US5741436
This is the patent suggested on Prestone's patent page on all coolant.
This is the patent suggested on Prestone's patent page on all coolant.
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Prestone All Makes, All Models coolant is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models coolant. It's not compatible with virtually any car maker's coolant system.
Coolant is not like oil. You shouldn't use such generic/universal coolants in your car. They will have types of organic acids that are not compatible with your engine or they will lack types of corrosion inhibitors that are required by your engine. Corrosion-inhibitor package is the key and what is required in it greatly varies from car maker to car maker.
Bottom line: Pick up your coolant from your car dealer if you care about your engine. Always avoid Prestone All Makes, All Models (which is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models) and other falsely labeled universal coolants.
Coolant is not like oil. You shouldn't use such generic/universal coolants in your car. They will have types of organic acids that are not compatible with your engine or they will lack types of corrosion inhibitors that are required by your engine. Corrosion-inhibitor package is the key and what is required in it greatly varies from car maker to car maker.
Bottom line: Pick up your coolant from your car dealer if you care about your engine. Always avoid Prestone All Makes, All Models (which is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models) and other falsely labeled universal coolants.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Prestone All Makes, All Models coolant is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models coolant. It's not compatible with virtually any car maker's coolant system.
Coolant is not like oil. You shouldn't use such generic/universal coolants in your car. They will have types of organic acids that are not compatible with your engine or they will lack types of corrosion inhibitors that are required by your engine. Corrosion-inhibitor package is the key and what is required in it greatly varies from car maker to car maker.
Bottom line: Pick up your coolant from your car dealer if you care about your engine. Always avoid Prestone All Makes, All Models (which is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models) and other falsely labeled universal coolants.
So, following your logic, are we safe in understanding that, you would never recommend any aftermarket coolant/antifreeze from any manufacturer? Prestone, Peak, Zerex. No difference. None of them are OEM, and thus they would all be "No Makes, No Models", right? Just trying to make sure we understand what you believe on this subject, when you say "Pick up your coolant from your car dealer".
What in particular makes you feel that, unlike other engine fluids, af/coolant should always be OEM?
Prestone All Makes, All Models coolant is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models coolant. It's not compatible with virtually any car maker's coolant system.
Coolant is not like oil. You shouldn't use such generic/universal coolants in your car. They will have types of organic acids that are not compatible with your engine or they will lack types of corrosion inhibitors that are required by your engine. Corrosion-inhibitor package is the key and what is required in it greatly varies from car maker to car maker.
Bottom line: Pick up your coolant from your car dealer if you care about your engine. Always avoid Prestone All Makes, All Models (which is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models) and other falsely labeled universal coolants.
So, following your logic, are we safe in understanding that, you would never recommend any aftermarket coolant/antifreeze from any manufacturer? Prestone, Peak, Zerex. No difference. None of them are OEM, and thus they would all be "No Makes, No Models", right? Just trying to make sure we understand what you believe on this subject, when you say "Pick up your coolant from your car dealer".
What in particular makes you feel that, unlike other engine fluids, af/coolant should always be OEM?
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Prestone All Makes, All Models coolant is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models coolant. It's not compatible with virtually any car maker's coolant system.
Coolant is not like oil. You shouldn't use such generic/universal coolants in your car. They will have types of organic acids that are not compatible with your engine or they will lack types of corrosion inhibitors that are required by your engine. Corrosion-inhibitor package is the key and what is required in it greatly varies from car maker to car maker.
Bottom line: Pick up your coolant from your car dealer if you care about your engine. Always avoid Prestone All Makes, All Models (which is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models) and other falsely labeled universal coolants.
So, following your logic, are we safe in understanding that, you would never recommend any aftermarket coolant/antifreeze from any manufacturer? Prestone, Peak, Zerex. No difference. None of them are OEM, and thus they would all be "No Makes, No Models", right? Just trying to make sure we understand what you believe on this subject, when you say "Pick up your coolant from your car dealer".
What in particular makes you feel that, unlike other engine fluids, af/coolant should always be OEM?
I did try to briefly explain it.
Most automotive coolants are ethylene/diethylene-based coolants. So, you are safe there.
However, the key component in the coolant is the corrosion-inhibitor package. Unlike the motor oil, there are usually no standards or certifications for the corrosion-inhibitor package, except for few OEMs, such as GM Dex-Cool.
To make the matters worse, every OEM has different requirements for the corrosion-inhibitor package. For example, Toyota requires silicates to provide sufficient lubrication of their water pumps. Prestone and many other universal coolants are silicate-free. Some other OEMs prohibit silicates entirely with the fear of them clogging (jelling) their cooling systems. Toyota and many other OEMs require that no sodium 2-ethylhexanoate (2-EHA) organic acid is used in the coolant, as 2-EHA is well-known to eat away certain gasket materials. Remember the lawsuits regarding Dex-Cool causing so many head-gasket failures in Ford and may other cars (even GM's own cars) and so on. To make the matters worse, most newer organic acids aren't compatible with the brass/copper/solder heater cores of 1990s and older cars and they will cause heater-core failures. Also, some coolants, despite being compatible with an OEM's engine, may not provide the full service interval specified.
I hope this makes things clear. Unless an OEM says it's OK to use a universal coolant (like Prestone, Peak, etc.), don't do so. Even if they OK a universal coolant, do a little research for your engine to see what the corrosion-inhibitor requirements are and choose the universal coolant accordingly with the right corrosion-inhibitor package.
"Universal coolant," "All Makes, All Models," etc. are nothing both marketing gimmicks. There is really no such thing. Go with an OEM coolant or an aftermarket coolant specifically designated for your OEM unless there is no OEM cooant specified.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Prestone All Makes, All Models coolant is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models coolant. It's not compatible with virtually any car maker's coolant system.
Coolant is not like oil. You shouldn't use such generic/universal coolants in your car. They will have types of organic acids that are not compatible with your engine or they will lack types of corrosion inhibitors that are required by your engine. Corrosion-inhibitor package is the key and what is required in it greatly varies from car maker to car maker.
Bottom line: Pick up your coolant from your car dealer if you care about your engine. Always avoid Prestone All Makes, All Models (which is actually Prestone No Makes, No Models) and other falsely labeled universal coolants.
So, following your logic, are we safe in understanding that, you would never recommend any aftermarket coolant/antifreeze from any manufacturer? Prestone, Peak, Zerex. No difference. None of them are OEM, and thus they would all be "No Makes, No Models", right? Just trying to make sure we understand what you believe on this subject, when you say "Pick up your coolant from your car dealer".
What in particular makes you feel that, unlike other engine fluids, af/coolant should always be OEM?
I did try to briefly explain it.
Most automotive coolants are ethylene/diethylene-based coolants. So, you are safe there.
However, the key component in the coolant is the corrosion-inhibitor package. Unlike the motor oil, there are usually no standards or certifications for the corrosion-inhibitor package, except for few OEMs, such as GM Dex-Cool.
To make the matters worse, every OEM has different requirements for the corrosion-inhibitor package. For example, Toyota requires silicates to provide sufficient lubrication of their water pumps. Prestone and many other universal coolants are silicate-free. Some other OEMs prohibit silicates entirely with the fear of them clogging (jelling) their cooling systems. Toyota and many other OEMs require that no sodium 2-ethylhexanoate (2-EHA) organic acid is used in the coolant, as 2-EHA is well-known to eat away certain gasket materials. Remember the lawsuits regarding Dex-Cool causing so many head-gasket failures in Ford and may other cars (even GM's own cars) and so on. To make the matters worse, most newer organic acids aren't compatible with the brass/copper/solder heater cores of 1990s and older cars and they will cause heater-core failures. Also, some coolants, despite being compatible with an OEM's engine, may not provide the full service interval specified.
I hope this makes things clear. Unless an OEM says it's OK to use a universal coolant (like Prestone, Peak, etc.), don't do so. Even if they OK a universal coolant, do a little research for your engine to see what the corrosion-inhibitor requirements are and choose the universal coolant accordingly with the right corrosion-inhibitor package.
"Universal coolant," "All Makes, All Models," etc. are nothing both marketing gimmicks. There is really no such thing. Go with an OEM coolant or an aftermarket coolant specifically designated for your OEM unless there is no OEM cooant specified.
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
What in particular makes you feel that, unlike other engine fluids, af/coolant should always be OEM?
Irrespective of what these OTC coolant call themselves, just plain caution should prevail in a decision making process. Would you get a Rolex watch repaired at a mom-pop store or an authorized dealer - watch moving parts have been there for centuries.?
Companies are spending top research dollars to be better and provide value to their customers. To transfer the value they charge a premium, as I said in my earlier post, I did a timing belt at 120K on my Highlander and the pump was spotless. I am extremely happy that the vehicle was trouble free for 120K, I consider that peace of mind and would throw the dollars that OEMs charge to get that peace of mind.
What in particular makes you feel that, unlike other engine fluids, af/coolant should always be OEM?
Irrespective of what these OTC coolant call themselves, just plain caution should prevail in a decision making process. Would you get a Rolex watch repaired at a mom-pop store or an authorized dealer - watch moving parts have been there for centuries.?
Companies are spending top research dollars to be better and provide value to their customers. To transfer the value they charge a premium, as I said in my earlier post, I did a timing belt at 120K on my Highlander and the pump was spotless. I am extremely happy that the vehicle was trouble free for 120K, I consider that peace of mind and would throw the dollars that OEMs charge to get that peace of mind.
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Originally Posted By: Prestone patent
However, such organic acid formulations also suffer from a number of problems. For example, sebacic acid, which is used in several commercial antifreezes (e.g., Texaco's "Havoline" Extended Life AntiFreeze/Coolant; General Motors' "Dex-Cool" Anti-Freeze/Coolant; Canadian Tire's "Motomaster" Long Life and is currently used in the standard formulation set forth by the British Military (see Specification TS 10177, "Antifreeze, Inhibited Ethanediol, AL-39"), is more difficult to use commercially since it is commercially available as a solid, and as such requires heat to dissolve it in a heat transfer fluid. Also, sebacic acid is generally more expensive and difficult to obtain commercially since currently there is only one domestic industrial supplier (Union Camp Corporation). See SAE SP811, pp. 141-42. Also, sebacic acid and higher di-carboxylic acids, tend to have poor solubility in antifreeze formulations using hard water. See U.S. Pat. No. 4,578,205, col. 1, lines 52-64.
I "think" I found the answer to why Toyota pink and other Asian premix antifreeze are not sold in concentrated form: sebacic acid solubility in hard water.
OEM branded Toyota pink seems to use benzoates instead of sebacic acid. I'd consider that borderline bait and switch.
However, such organic acid formulations also suffer from a number of problems. For example, sebacic acid, which is used in several commercial antifreezes (e.g., Texaco's "Havoline" Extended Life AntiFreeze/Coolant; General Motors' "Dex-Cool" Anti-Freeze/Coolant; Canadian Tire's "Motomaster" Long Life and is currently used in the standard formulation set forth by the British Military (see Specification TS 10177, "Antifreeze, Inhibited Ethanediol, AL-39"), is more difficult to use commercially since it is commercially available as a solid, and as such requires heat to dissolve it in a heat transfer fluid. Also, sebacic acid is generally more expensive and difficult to obtain commercially since currently there is only one domestic industrial supplier (Union Camp Corporation). See SAE SP811, pp. 141-42. Also, sebacic acid and higher di-carboxylic acids, tend to have poor solubility in antifreeze formulations using hard water. See U.S. Pat. No. 4,578,205, col. 1, lines 52-64.
I "think" I found the answer to why Toyota pink and other Asian premix antifreeze are not sold in concentrated form: sebacic acid solubility in hard water.
OEM branded Toyota pink seems to use benzoates instead of sebacic acid. I'd consider that borderline bait and switch.
I don't believe the hard water premise for now selling most oem Asian PHOATs as a premix. Most vehicle manufacturers now recommend using using distilled water for aluminum blocks and heads anyway. So hard water is moot point and I don't use tap water now as distilled is inexpensive.
I believe it to be strictly profit motive and convenience, nothing more. Selling half distilled/deionized mixed with the AF makes for nice profit. And, Motorcraft makes an Asian PHOAT called Specialty Green that comes as full strength.
I now consider the Recochem/Pep Boys full strength OEM brand extended service interval Asian P-HOAT and distilled to be a solid option if one chooses not to use an Asian oem premix.
I believe it to be strictly profit motive and convenience, nothing more. Selling half distilled/deionized mixed with the AF makes for nice profit. And, Motorcraft makes an Asian PHOAT called Specialty Green that comes as full strength.
I now consider the Recochem/Pep Boys full strength OEM brand extended service interval Asian P-HOAT and distilled to be a solid option if one chooses not to use an Asian oem premix.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I "think" I found the answer to why Toyota pink and other Asian premix antifreeze are not sold in concentrated form: sebacic acid solubility in hard water.
OEM branded Toyota pink seems to use benzoates instead of sebacic acid. I'd consider that borderline bait and switch.
No, sodium benzoate is used in Toyota Red (Long Life, the older formula). Sebacic acid is used in Toyota Pink (Super Long Life, the newer formula). Sebacic acid and all other newer organic acids are not compatible with brass/copper/solder metals, and sodium benzoate, while being compatible, doesn't provide the super-long-life service interval. 2-EHA organic acid found in Dex-Cool and Prestone All Makes, All Models and similar universal long-life/super-long-life coolants isn't compatible with some common gasket materials found in most engines. Universal coolants may also lack corrosion inhibitors (such as silicates) required by a particular OEM or may have others not allowed by a particular OEM.
You should never use tap water with any super-long-life coolant, as you will not be able to meet the service internal with the contaminants present in tap water that may react with the organic acids and neutralize them and some other contaminants that may be corrosive. Therefore, always use distilled water with newer coolants. In fact, even when you are flushing the engine, you should use distilled water, as some water will remain in the system.
I also find it very inconvenient to mix concentrated coolant and distilled water. However, it helps to have concentrated coolant when you do a water flush, as some water will remain in the system. Having premixed coolant is certainly very convenient.
I "think" I found the answer to why Toyota pink and other Asian premix antifreeze are not sold in concentrated form: sebacic acid solubility in hard water.
OEM branded Toyota pink seems to use benzoates instead of sebacic acid. I'd consider that borderline bait and switch.
No, sodium benzoate is used in Toyota Red (Long Life, the older formula). Sebacic acid is used in Toyota Pink (Super Long Life, the newer formula). Sebacic acid and all other newer organic acids are not compatible with brass/copper/solder metals, and sodium benzoate, while being compatible, doesn't provide the super-long-life service interval. 2-EHA organic acid found in Dex-Cool and Prestone All Makes, All Models and similar universal long-life/super-long-life coolants isn't compatible with some common gasket materials found in most engines. Universal coolants may also lack corrosion inhibitors (such as silicates) required by a particular OEM or may have others not allowed by a particular OEM.
You should never use tap water with any super-long-life coolant, as you will not be able to meet the service internal with the contaminants present in tap water that may react with the organic acids and neutralize them and some other contaminants that may be corrosive. Therefore, always use distilled water with newer coolants. In fact, even when you are flushing the engine, you should use distilled water, as some water will remain in the system.
I also find it very inconvenient to mix concentrated coolant and distilled water. However, it helps to have concentrated coolant when you do a water flush, as some water will remain in the system. Having premixed coolant is certainly very convenient.
Look what I found -
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120288404?dq=inassignee:%22Prestone+Products+Corp.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCGoVChMI4LukhMyuyAIVyZeICh0wDAXo
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120288404?dq=inassignee:%22Prestone+Products+Corp.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCGoVChMI4LukhMyuyAIVyZeICh0wDAXo
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catalo...2100_0426691141
http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1414791pdf?$PDF$
It still has 2-eha. Just another Dexcool clone. I will never trust this company.
http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1414791pdf?$PDF$
It still has 2-eha. Just another Dexcool clone. I will never trust this company.
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Originally Posted By: BigD1
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catalo...2100_0426691141
http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1414791pdf?$PDF$
It still has 2-eha. Just another Dexcool clone. I will never trust this company.
According to Prestone's patent application, there might be another inhibitor besides 2-EHA in this - which was mentioned there and by the UCI-Fram rep.
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catalo...2100_0426691141
http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1414791pdf?$PDF$
It still has 2-eha. Just another Dexcool clone. I will never trust this company.
According to Prestone's patent application, there might be another inhibitor besides 2-EHA in this - which was mentioned there and by the UCI-Fram rep.
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