NERC Assessment Identifies Largest Threat To Grid: Energy Policy

[MVAR]

This is why TVA built Raccoon Mountain (and why Ontario is looking to build Meaford). If you can sock excess nuke or hydro baseload into PHES during lower demand, you can then use that very cheaply procured capacity to displace expensive peakers during the day.

Diablo Canyon & Helms have(had) this symbiotic relationship for the approval to build both.

 

[SC Maintenance]

h

Nuclear plants can operate in modes other than baseload, but US regulation prohibits a lot of things that are allowed elsewhere. For example, in a blackout, US plants have to SCRAM, our plants in Canada don't. So, our plants can be used to black-start the grid, yours can't, by virtue of regulation. We can't vary reactor power levels anymore here in Canada to follow load (we did in the 70's and 80's) so we just use steam bypass (just at Bruce) to reduce output in blocks, which is less elegant. You can use both technologies, reactor power level maneuvers and steam bypass, to very quickly, and very elegantly, follow load if you have enough nuclear capacity to do so. Most places, that's not an issue that they have to contend with.

Thanks for the clear explanation. It definitely expands my knowledge. So assuming we had excess power we could simply vent steam, or as @Cujet suggested use it for other things in an on/off situation - carbon capture, spin up a gyro to generate power for peak load, etc. However all this requires a lot of money, and given South Carolina was unable to finish a single reactor on an already functioning site, this seems problematic

Well, it would involve them choosing a site,

I realize this sounds trivial to non-US folks, but its not simply because the US federal government has no authority to choose a site within a state. I suppose they could do so in DC or Guam, but the constitution clearly lays out who is in charge in a particular state, its the State Government. So the State would need to agree, and of course no one wants it.

So what they need to do is bribe someone to take it. Nevada thought they were willing to be bribed, but they changed their mind. This of course will be seen as a bribe which has its own political problems, but if the bribe is big enough someone will take it.

 

[Pablo]

They are in control

WA AG advised utilities commission to conceal carbon tax impact on energy rates

h5.newsbreakapp.com

 

[nomas]

So assuming we had excess power we could simply vent steam,

There's a little more to it than that .

 

[OVERKILL]

h

Thanks for the clear explanation. It definitely expands my knowledge. So assuming we had excess power we could simply vent steam, or as @Cujet suggested use it for other things in an on/off situation - carbon capture, spin up a gyro to generate power for peak load, etc.

Ideally, you wouldn't want to vent the steam, you'd want to use it for something else. We pay Bruce to use steam bypass when it is needed, they get paid for "potential kWh", so, the cheapest power is that which you aren't avoiding to produce, so if you can put those kWh elsewhere, be it into water behind a dam or even turning it into hydrogen, you are doing better than wasting them by sending the heat back into the lake/river.

However all this requires a lot of money, and given South Carolina was unable to finish a single reactor on an already functioning site, this seems problematic

I mean, if you look at how much the feds have thrown at wind and solar, is it really that much money, comparatively? Ontario spent $55 billion building their entire nuclear fleet, the Green Energy Act, which contracted and subsidized the installation of ~5GW of wind and 2.5GW of solar (mostly rooftop) will cost $60 billion by the end of the 20-year contracts, for less than 1/10th the productivity.

Vogtle (which is the same design to be built at Summer) was completed, went way over budget ($35 billion for the two units) but is still a drop in the bucket compared to what the feds have been giving VRE developers through REC's and other subsidy schemes. So it really depends on how that "expensive" is framed.

I realize this sounds trivial to non-US folks, but its not simply because the US federal government has no authority to choose a site within a state. I suppose they could do so in DC or Guam, but the constitution clearly lays out who is in charge in a particular state, its the State Government. So the State would need to agree, and of course no one wants it.

So what they need to do is bribe someone to take it. Nevada thought they were willing to be bribed, but they changed their mind. This of course will be seen as a bribe which has its own political problems, but if the bribe is big enough someone will take it.

Yes, I appreciate that Yucca Mountain was "supposed to be" the site, but that the autonomy of the states makes site selection more difficult. Here in Ontario, we have the Federal NWMO engaging communities to be host sites, and there has been some pushback too, but there are economic benefits, which can't be overlooked. Ultimately, a DGR isn't a new concept, it's one we've been using for things far more toxic (forever toxic) than SNF, such as mercury and cyanide.

 

[SC Maintenance]

There's a little more to it than that .

Homer disagrees

 

[PandaBear]

h

Thanks for the clear explanation. It definitely expands my knowledge. So assuming we had excess power we could simply vent steam, or as @Cujet suggested use it for other things in an on/off situation - carbon capture, spin up a gyro to generate power for peak load, etc. However all this requires a lot of money, and given South Carolina was unable to finish a single reactor on an already functioning site, this seems problematic


I realize this sounds trivial to non-US folks, but its not simply because the US federal government has no authority to choose a site within a state. I suppose they could do so in DC or Guam, but the constitution clearly lays out who is in charge in a particular state, its the State Government. So the State would need to agree, and of course no one wants it.

So what they need to do is bribe someone to take it. Nevada thought they were willing to be bribed, but they changed their mind. This of course will be seen as a bribe which has its own political problems, but if the bribe is big enough someone will take it.

I wouldn't mind if all of our nuke waste is stored underground of DC. It has the military presence for its safety and it will for sure not leak due to some stupid political reason.

 

[PandaBear]

Ideally, you wouldn't want to vent the steam, you'd want to use it for something else. We pay Bruce to use steam bypass when it is needed, they get paid for "potential kWh", so, the cheapest power is that which you aren't avoiding to produce, so if you can put those kWh elsewhere, be it into water behind a dam or even turning it into hydrogen, you are doing better than wasting them by sending the heat back into the lake/river.

I mean, if you look at how much the feds have thrown at wind and solar, is it really that much money, comparatively? Ontario spent $55 billion building their entire nuclear fleet, the Green Energy Act, which contracted and subsidized the installation of ~5GW of wind and 2.5GW of solar (mostly rooftop) will cost $60 billion by the end of the 20-year contracts, for less than 1/10th the productivity.

Vogtle (which is the same design to be built at Summer) was completed, went way over budget ($35 billion for the two units) but is still a drop in the bucket compared to what the feds have been giving VRE developers through REC's and other subsidy schemes. So it really depends on how that "expensive" is framed.

Yes, I appreciate that Yucca Mountain was "supposed to be" the site, but that the autonomy of the states makes site selection more difficult. Here in Ontario, we have the Federal NWMO engaging communities to be host sites, and there has been some pushback too, but there are economic benefits, which can't be overlooked. Ultimately, a DGR isn't a new concept, it's one we've been using for things far more toxic (forever toxic) than SNF, such as mercury and cyanide.

Paying someone to take the electricity would be great if the grid is not overloaded. Come to think of it, if the grid is large enough in capacity we will not have to overflow it, just let power be sent further and further back and forth and someone will be able to use it or waste it in transit.

Just have to spend money to build the grid, but who is paying for it when power plants make money on peak hours? If there's no peak hours there's no money to make, let alone expand the grid.

 

[MVAR]

Paying someone to take the electricity would be great if the grid is not overloaded. Come to think of it, if the grid is large enough in capacity we will not have to overflow it, just let power be sent further and further back and forth and someone will be able to use it or waste it in transit.

Just have to spend money to build the grid, but who is paying for it when power plants make money on peak hours? If there's no peak hours there's no money to make, let alone expand the grid.

The entire point of AGC is Hz control. Too high or too low generation will damage the low pressures blading of the turbines.

 

[OVERKILL]

Paying someone to take the electricity would be great if the grid is not overloaded. Come to think of it, if the grid is large enough in capacity we will not have to overflow it, just let power be sent further and further back and forth and someone will be able to use it or waste it in transit.

Just have to spend money to build the grid, but who is paying for it when power plants make money on peak hours? If there's no peak hours there's no money to make, let alone expand the grid.

Yes, you'd need massive over-builds of transmission capacity (and mass coordination of supply) for that to work, and that's more expensive than curtailment.

You bring up a good question with respect to markets. Here in Ontario, our nukes are paid two different ways:
1. Bruce Power (private) is on a $0.077/kWh fixed-rate contract
2. OPG (public) is paid cost plus expenses

#2 is how places like Quebec operate, the "at cost" model, which is how Ontario Hydro functioned before the breakup. It generally yields the lowest consumer power prices.

 

[MVAR]

Earlier in the thread, it was asked why electrons are not sent elsewhere when an area is surplus. It is, demand and supply takes care of that. The cost of transmitting electrons increases with distance. Transmission rights are purchased from the owner of the high voltage conductors. Surplus energy is moved to higher demand/priced regions until the cost of transmission negates the transaction. It's the same concept of any market commodity.

As MVAR said, the VAR component of electricity does not travel well, it is required for voltage support. Hence the need for generation close to the load.

The evolving tech of battery storage cannot replace the requirement of rotating mass of thermal generation. It is the shock absorber of the bulk electric system.

IMO, we are in a real pickle. Wide spread outages will manifest with a multi-region cold front. Our over-subscribed natural gas infrastructure will de-pressurize as pumps fail due to condensate freeze.

The solution IMO, is to hold renewable penetration at current levels. Halt the green balling of our base load coal fleet. Expedite new and redundant natural gas pipeline infrastructure, and get the .gov to spearhead normalization of modular nuclear reactors (60-100 mw output) near load centers.

Old school nukes do not chase load well, they are contingency planning nightmares because of their huge output. Newer tech modular reactors are the opposite, 60-100 mw, and will chase the butterfly output of renewables.

There. I need to lie down now.

Don’t know how I missed this post but it was a really good one.

@Tyson alluded to a fundamental of the BES with rotational mass & the impact the governors droop control have during frequency excursions.

In that regard, I’d like to see, where applicable, an expansion of solar thermal supplemental steam injection for existing steam turbines. These plants have the spinning mass, ramp rates, longevity & reliability needed for the BES. By adding steam to the feed water section heat exchangers, power plants would be able to c/out fires in their boilers lowering emissions & increasing efficiency. They would be able to accomplish this while retaining all of their positive attributes & allowing the market to develop proper new technologies for future generation.

 

[k1xv]

As a former engineer and attorney who worked in energy regulation and planning for decades, the only way this can ever work is for extensive use of decentralized energy and capacity sources (such as small scale solar on homes and businesses, with energy storage on site, and interconnection to the grid to transfer out surpluses and import in to cover deficits.

No way are we going to be able to charge everybody's car overnight from a central grid,

Time of day rates are based on high rates when demand is high, and lower rates at night and weekend off peak periods. If everybody is charging cars at night, and using heat pumps to warm their homes, the night demand could exceed daytime weekday demand.

Maybe we will have to have odd-even charging days, like 50 years ago during gas shortages.

 

[oil pan 4]

Can’t blame capitalism for the electric grid and generation mess.

It's all politicians with political science, English, philosophy, arts degrees screwing up power generation and distribution.

h

Thanks for the clear explanation. It definitely expands my knowledge. So assuming we had excess power we could simply vent steam, or as @Cujet suggested use it for other things in an on/off situation - carbon capture, spin up a gyro to generate power for peak load, etc. However all this requires a lot of money, and given South Carolina was unable to finish a single reactor on an already functioning site, this seems problematic


I realize this sounds trivial to non-US folks, but its not simply because the US federal government has no authority to choose a site within a state. I suppose they could do so in DC or Guam, but the constitution clearly lays out who is in charge in a particular state, its the State Government. So the State would need to agree, and of course no one wants it.

So what they need to do is bribe someone to take it. Nevada thought they were willing to be bribed, but they changed their mind. This of course will be seen as a bribe which has its own political problems, but if the bribe is big enough someone will take it.

New Mexico for nuclear waste.

 

[Pew]

What happens when the freq drops too low and battery/solar/wind gets "turned on" (for the lack of proper term) to the grid to supplement like during a heatwave with everyone using their AC? Is it a complex undertaking to control the rotating generators when power from batteries or renewables are injected into the system?

 

[MVAR]

As a former engineer and attorney who worked in energy regulation and planning for decades, the only way this can ever work is for extensive use of decentralized energy and capacity sources (such as small scale solar on homes and businesses, with energy storage on site, and interconnection to the grid to transfer out surpluses and import in to cover deficits.

No way are we going to be able to charge everybody's car overnight from a central grid,

Time of day rates are based on high rates when demand is high, and lower rates at night and weekend off peak periods. If everybody is charging cars at night, and using heat pumps to warm their homes, the night demand could exceed daytime weekday demand.

Maybe we will have to have odd-even charging days, like 50 years ago during gas shortages.

Time of day rates are already inverse from BES real time pricing. If you trend darn near any node in the CAISO system, the LMP will indicate low daytime prices between HE9-HE20 with higher prices at night.

Also, if you’re going to attempt to decentralize the grid by supplying at the distribution level, your pricing is again going to increase as generators scale up very well. It’s also far cheaper to utilize an existing transmission system than attempt to deal with ferranti rise issues due to light loading with distributed generation.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

I'm on the merchant side, located in Montrose, CO.

CRSPM1 and LAPM1

Former home of Colorado-Ute Electric Association, which found out you can't operate a 1260 megawatt, coal-fired generating station with a hundred megawatt mentality before it finally eats you alive.

 

[oil pan 4]

What happens when the freq drops too low and battery/solar/wind gets "turned on" (for the lack of proper term) to the grid to supplement like during a heatwave with everyone using their AC? Is it a complex undertaking to control the rotating generators when power from batteries or renewables are injected into the system?

The green simps won't answer because they don't understand the question or know anything about the power grid.
When the power grid drops below 59.4hz for more than 20 minutes generators kick off line. The enphase solar micro inverters the most popular inverer for a while now connect to pretty much anything, mine run something like 65 to 47hz, but are useless without a grid signal. Solar and wind won't be able to black start the power grid.