Need you guys input

[bbslider001]

Well guys, after a few years of proper education from some good people on this site, I find myself educating others on other forums when the "what oil is best" discussion comes up. Following is a post I put up in one response to this type of discussion. If ya'll don't mind, grade it for me, if you will. Hopefully what I said is worthy of heeding for some. Dave, Garak, and whoever else, please chime in and feel free to correct me where I am wrong. Here is the post. Thanks for reading!

"Now, I am not really a lube geek and I really don't care what another guy does with his truck. BUT, there is a guy over on BITOG who is an engineer and he really changed my mind about lubes. We all tend to get "feel goodie" feelings when we change our oil more often, or buy the jug that has prettier colors on it, or get the oil that makes huge claims of protection. All in all, oil is oil, with. They just have different additives. Whether you run Supertech or the most expensive Amsoil/Schaeffers cocktail you can come up with, oil just provides a barrier of film for protection between moving parts and suspends harmful contaminants. Oil does not break down to a point of non-functionanlity, but rather gets loaded with contaminants and the better oil suspends those contaminants from producing wear on your motor and the components. Good filtration is just as important, if not more so. I will see guys use top rated oil and at the same time put a stupid sh** Orange Can made of cardboard on the same engine to filter the wear particles!!

My point is, if you really want to see what shape your engine and oil is in after a 3k run, send it off for analysis. Numbers do not lie, ever. A good UOA will tell you facts and not fiction. Again, for those that want to change every 3k miles and say it's better than this or that, more power to you. Same goes for the "75k miles is no problem" mentality. All I am saying is numbers tell you the real world info. One can't make a claim that one is better than the other or wears out the engine more than the other based on "well it just feels right". used oil analysis don't lie, period.

Also, it does depend on the engine. A 5.9 Cummins or 6.6 Durmax is not nearly as hard on oil as say, the 6.0 PSD. The 6.0 is known to shear oil down to the equivalent of a 30w oil. So yes, those analysis will be different after 5k miles of use. One engine requires analysis over the other just based on reputation alone, but again, that is based on real world numbers. It is not based on hypothesis or theories, but facts. I hear what you guys are saying, and we all feel good dumping pretty new jugs of our favorite lubes into our beloved trucks. But making claims that it's better to do it sooner rather than later just based on that emotion is false."

This was posted on a few other forums.

 

[Oil Changer]

I would have thought of a different title.

 

[JHZR2]

So you posted this elsewhere and now want us to give proof reading and/or additional argument points?

Hmmm.

I'd tend to agree that UOA is good because values like tbn, oxidation,, fuel and water dilution and viscosity don't lie. But people will argue to no end about UOA and wear metals and what they mean/don't mean, and how it affects actual metallic losses and wear. No one lube is good for all engines and all use profiles, though most any lube that meets current specs should perform suitably at least for a time in a non-exotic mode of operation. Turbos, high power density, limited cooling, etc all play a role though in the outcome and performance, and thus must be considered.

 

[bbslider001]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
So you posted this elsewhere and now want us to give proof reading and/or additional argument points?

Hmmm.

I'd tend to agree that UOA is good because values like tbn, oxidation,, fuel and water dilution and viscosity don't lie. But people will argue to no end about UOA and wear metals and what they mean/don't mean, and how it affects actual metallic losses and wear. No one lube is good for all engines and all use profiles, though most any lube that meets current specs should perform suitably at least for a time in a non-exotic mode of operation. Turbos, high power density, limited cooling, etc all play a role though in the outcome and performance, and thus must be considered.


Yes, why is that a bad thing? It is just for fun, not to get more "argument points". Thanks for the input. It was more to judge myself and my own education, not argue more effectively.

 

[bbslider001]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I would have thought of a different title.


Well maybe one of the moderators can change it for me so its more suitable for ya.

 

[silverrat]

Some parts should be taken out, like the part where you say you don't care about how other people do to their trucks and then you go on and tell people what to do. Also things like "all in all, oil is oil" doesn't mean anything when you go on to explain the differences they may have

 

[Garak]

Basically, some oils have different capabilities (long drain, different viscosities for different conditions). And yes, any lube can be overused or underused.

But, if you're using an oil that meets the specifications you require, it generally will be able to handle the factory OCI, if not longer. A great example would be the older 7.3 Powerstrokes that called for a 3,000 mile OCI. That's a prime case of either get some used oil analysis done, or grab a sensibly priced HDEO and don't complain about changing a boutique every 3,000 miles.

When it comes to filtration, I'm kind of on the fence. I certainly won't hunt for the cheapest filter out there, particularly if it's poorly constructed or has no name recognition. I'm also not going to spend a fortune finding the filter with the most "impressive" specifications, either. All the name brands and the lines within each, including the Fram, have their places. My beef with the Fram orange can is that it costs about as much as the Bosch Premium when it comes to my G, and actually is significantly more expensive than the Wix for my truck. On the other hand, the Fram Ultra has some impressive pricing up here, all things considered.

With respect to used oil analysis, one more note. We always have to watch what we're doing with them. Divining wear from them is exceedingly problematic. To even attempt to do so requires minimizing variables and having some good trended data; a big database for comparison's sake doesn't hurt, either. But, to verify condemnation limits over an OCI - that's useful. For instance, I'd venture that when my dad was still around and had his 7.3, which only had highway miles, a 3,000 mile OCI would have been a bit of a waste.

 

[SilverC6]

Rotella T6 and a synthetic Donaldson or Fleetguard Stratapore will get you a long way down the road.

If you think a lot of your truck, why do anything less.

But if you believe cheaper is better, SuperTech (Warren) dino and Wix will suffice.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Rotella T6 and a synthetic Donaldson or Fleetguard Stratapore will get you a long way down the road.

Sometimes, at least up here, going to actual trucking places provides a better deal than the normal parts store or Walmart. Finding the right filter can be challenging. Going to a place that sells the Donaldson or Fleetguard makes life easier, and they'll often have a pretty good deal on oil. One of the best deals I saw on Delo (and Chevron PCMOs, even) happened to be at a trucking outfit while looking for Fumotos and filters.

 

[Ken2]

"Oil does not break down to a point of non-functionanlity,"
Oil does break down to a point of non-functionality. It can come several ways. Oxidation is a change at the molecular level; oxidized oil is worn out oil. Oxidized oil does not protect your engine. And, the additives become depleted.

"...but rather gets loaded with contaminants and the better oil suspends those contaminants from producing wear on your motor and the components."
Soot is significant in diesel engines, not in gasoline engines. Fuel is a contaminant, as is coolant. In most cases, though, the additive depletion signals the exhaustion of the oil.

"Good filtration is just as important, if not more so."
Important part of the package, but, excluding bypass filtration, the condition of the oil does not mainly depend on the filtration. Bypass filtration serves a purpose, but often isn't cost effective.

I know, dozens of exceptions, but the old trope, "oil doesn't wear out, it just gets dirty" certainly isn't true.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
I know, dozens of exceptions, but the old trope, "oil doesn't wear out, it just gets dirty" certainly isn't true.

Yes, absolutely. Good filtration helps, particularly in diesel engines, but there still are limits. Good filtration will help extend on OCI. But, generally speaking, so will minimizing things that deplete additives or oxidize the oil. Eliminating fuel dilution (i.e. the LPG taxis) can do absolute wonders.

 

[bbslider001]

Good input Garak and Ken and I really appreciate it. I don't claim to know it all or even a little at this point. I just know what I know from education and real world experience.

For the record, because I run a '97 7.3, my oil goes no farther than the 5k just because of injector health and diesel stuff, but I also use conventional oil and do no used oil analysis, so it is cost effective for me to do so.

 

[Garak]

And one has to remember that one can really surprise oneself with what's cost effective. Supertech up here is hard to beat, but if one looks around a little at distributors and trucking outfits, one can get some pretty good prices on all kinds of HDEOs. The Delvac 1 I'm running sells at the distributor for roughly the same price that Pennzoil conventional goes for at Walmart. Go figure. They charge about double the price for Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck there.

 

[bbslider001]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
"Oil does not break down to a point of non-functionanlity,"
Oil does break down to a point of non-functionality. It can come several ways. Oxidation is a change at the molecular level; oxidized oil is worn out oil. Oxidized oil does not protect your engine. And, the additives become depleted.

"...but rather gets loaded with contaminants and the better oil suspends those contaminants from producing wear on your motor and the components."
Soot is significant in diesel engines, not in gasoline engines. Fuel is a contaminant, as is coolant. In most cases, though, the additive depletion signals the exhaustion of the oil.

"Good filtration is just as important, if not more so."
Important part of the package, but, excluding bypass filtration, the condition of the oil does not mainly depend on the filtration. Bypass filtration serves a purpose, but often isn't cost effective.

I know, dozens of exceptions, but the old trope, "oil doesn't wear out, it just gets dirty" certainly isn't true.


Ken, I hear you and agree for the most part. I just don't think that lube is exhausted, as you say, at 3k miles...even under severe use. On that note, some people think 3k miles of towing is sever when it really isn't as hard on a truck as some might think. Even my oil is still pretty clear after 4-5k miles of use.It doesn't really look dirty until about 6k. I am not sure why my truck is like that and other are black after the first start up. Who knows?

 

[Garak]

I'd almost swear that the short OCI in those early Powerstrokes was an editing oversight. With a sump that size, it seemed a little odd.

I remember accompanying my dad to pick up his first Powerstroke. He had driven truck before and had used a lot of agricultural equipment, so it's not like he was unfamiliar with large sumps. But, his "normal automobile" experience with diesels was limited to the 6.2, a fine engine but with a rather modest sump. I was going through the manual specs on the way back and read the sump size to him. "Holy [bleep]! That's a $100 oil change!" Of course, he absolutely loved the thing.

I wish he had kept it around. His first one was about the same vintage as yours, maybe a year newer, and he hardly put any miles on the thing. He ended up trading in every couple years for a new model.

 

[bbslider001]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I'd almost swear that the short OCI in those early Powerstrokes was an editing oversight. With a sump that size, it seemed a little odd.

I remember accompanying my dad to pick up his first Powerstroke. He had driven truck before and had used a lot of agricultural equipment, so it's not like he was unfamiliar with large sumps. But, his "normal automobile" experience with diesels was limited to the 6.2, a fine engine but with a rather modest sump. I was going through the manual specs on the way back and read the sump size to him. "Holy [bleep]! That's a $100 oil change!" Of course, he absolutely loved the thing.

I wish he had kept it around. His first one was about the same vintage as yours, maybe a year newer, and he hardly put any miles on the thing. He ended up trading in every couple years for a new model.


Garak, do you mean that you think the oversight was that they suggested too early of a change? And yeah, the oil change on mine runs about $75 with conventional Rotella. I also run a Donaldson ELF7405 so it increase my capacity by 3 quarts, but other than that, changes are kinda high.

 

[Garak]

Yep, I'm wondering if they gave it much thought at all, and just kept the same wording and intervals that they did on other engines from previous years. Dave Newton has gone through a bunch of used oil analysis on such engines, and I bet he's never seen one where the lube was anywhere near done at 3,000 miles.

When my dad got his, he was getting up there in the years and didn't like changing oil as much as he used to. I think he just took it to the dealer. For the few miles he put on the things, he could have avoided changing oil altogether.