Need advice on Filter choices

[Garak]

Originally Posted by ToadU
Go to any taxi company with a fleet and tell me they have Ultras ect and Redline oil!!??! Just aint happening. Maybe a one off Indy guy but not a fleet. Taxies are run extremely hard and get hundreds of thousands of miles on them. Same w law enforcement cars and many other fleet vehicles.

This, exactly. Using something overpriced (or even objectively good at a high price) won't pay. You can buy a lot of engine work for the price of very expensive synthetics in fleet usage. Now, if the synthetic is utilized fully and minimizes downtime, then there's an advantage.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by ToadU
No one can even prove a filter that filters to a smaller micron in beneficial. So what if it does? We don't have any data to show what size particle will harm an engine other than to say there is no need to filter smaller than what the OEM filter spec is.


Plenty of SAE studies have shown that better oil filtration results in less engine wear. This has been discussed many times in this forum. Go search for the SAE "bus study".

Originally Posted by ToadU
Frankly many "high performance" extended interval filters actually allow the smaller particles to pass (think Wix XP) which is why they are good for longer intervals.......they don't go into bypass from becoming full.


Referencing the WIX XP is a bad example because it has horrible ISO 4548-12 efficiency numbers (50% @ 20 microns). Other full synthetic long OCI use filters have some very good efficiency ratings - ie, 99% @ 20 microns.

 

[Job]

A little wordy but. I have a brother in law who has become very wealthy doing state and federal concrete drainage work by bid. The wife gets a new Mercedes every five years and he gets a new high end truck, purchased. They have a multi million dollar home and money is never an object. I wonder if the bid saying we use a $1.79 cheapest oil filter and cheapest bulk oil we can find would win. Saying the filter meets OE specs is taken from whoever made it. Specs for OE on efficiency and other factors are mostly not known. So they don't need to say anything not known. Other specs like correct thread, Y/N, has drainback valve, Y/N. Has bypass valve Y/N, can size same as OE, Y/N. Government buyers see this meets specs and say OK. As a taxpayer I would rather have officers patrol cars and school buses that cost a lot of money and involve their safety get high end filters and oil in the bid. I think it is just more profit taken because it can be taken. That's my opinion and I stick to it. Saying oil and filters don't matter sort of makes this whole website useless except the general and humor section.

 

[bbhero]

I'd be more than happy to have someone like you to work on my cars.

 

[ToadU]

>>>Plenty of SAE studies have shown that better oil filtration results in less engine wear. This has been discussed many times in this forum. Go search for the SAE "bus study".
Your primafacie point is of course correct, logical and based on facts. BUT and this is a big but and the elephant in the room you can't prove a cost benefit for increased filtration. I'm sure with technology we could get to the point of having nano particle filtration but where is the benefit. Less wear? What's the end game? You tear down an engine at 350k miles and down to the the ten thousandth or millionth or ten millionth can prove after spending inordinate amounts of money you have saved a fraction of fraction to the tenth power of metal wear...wear that makes no difference to the runability, driveablity, reliability or safety. What do you win? What's the game? If let's call it the cheap stuff takes 99 percent of fleet cars to 200 or 300k miles and let's call it the expensive stuff takes 99 percent of fleets cars to 200 or 300k miles where is the victory?

Sure it's might be "better" but better how? You can't prove it translates to longer engine life. In fact, the empirical data evidenced by millions of fleets vehicles shows otherwise.

So you win. I'll concede that. But what do you win? A lighter wallet and nothing else.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by ToadU
So you win. I'll concede that. But what do you win? A lighter wallet and nothing else.


What I and everyone else wins is the right to spend thier money how they want to. Just because some vehicles might hit 250K miles using $3 no name oil filters doesn't mean everyone should use them too. I'll use higher end high efficiency filters knowing what I know about filtration. Just drink one less Starbucks per year. If I want to save money there are better ways then using cheap oil filters.

 

[ToadU]

>>>As a taxpayer I would rather have officers patrol cars and school buses that cost a lot of money and involve their safety get high end filters and oil in the bid.
This is a specious argument. Who wants to argue against safety of little "chill'ren" on the school bus...someone's son or daughter? Who wants to argue we should place cops and first responders in more danger?

Oil and filters meeting OEM spec in no way affect safety. No one can argue that. Because Mag1 bulk oil or Chevron bulk or Citgo or insert bulk oil name here.....or Fram jobber filters or Pennzoil jobber filters.....which meets all OEM and industry specs is in the brake system, engine or power steering and is changed in accordance with the proper intervals how on earth can you or anyone argue that's a safety issue?

I rather not waste money on boutique oils and filters and mmmmm oh ya let's give cops raises or put more cops on the road or spend that money on say I dunno more teachers and better teachers. Even better how about lowering my taxes and let me keep more of my own money. Just my opinion as always.

Show me how a police car with DOT approved brake fluid changed on proper service intervals stops better somehow or is less likely to crash because it has a bulk fluid verses Red Line or Royal Purple brake fluid!!?? How does a Fram Ultra contribute to safety over an orange can or Fram jobber filter when changed on proper intervals. Show me Dino oil is a safety hazard in an engine properly maintain.

 

[ToadU]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by ToadU
So you win. I'll concede that. But what do you win? A lighter wallet and nothing else.


What I and everyone else wins is the right to spend thier money how they want to. Just because some vehicles might hit 250K miles using $3 no name oil filters doesn't mean everyone should use them too. I'll use higher end high efficiency filters knowing what I know about filtration. Just drink one less Starbucks per year. If I want to save money there are better ways then using cheap oil filters.

Of course it's your money. Spend it how you want. It's a free country and I'm all for it. What I'm not for is wasting tax payer money or scaremongering people who come here into thinking they need to spend money they don't. I don't know their personal financial situations but the way some of the specious arguments are presented it causes genuine worry to folks.

You could change your oil every time before you start your engine too. I mean wouldn't every trip be better with completely fresh oil? I'd argue the detergentsnin modern oils could actually cause harm with over changing but I'm sure you could make an argument fresh oil every trip was better than changing in intervals. The point I'm making is you don't get anything in return for the effort or expense. It's just not there and can't be proven. So you have microscopically less containment's in your oil. No one can show you that provides a benefit. The engine doesn't care. There is a point of disminishing returns as to provide no benefit. Meet OEM specs intervals and your vehicle will have a very long life as designed.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by ToadU
The point I'm making is you don't get anything in return for the effort or expense. It's just not there and can't be proven. So you have microscopically less containment's in your oil. No one can show you that provides a benefit. The engine doesn't care.


No harm in keeping the oil cleaner than not. Cleaner oil actually does cause less engine wear - every technical paper on the subject concludes that. Using higher efficiency filters is more important with long OCIs because the sump is dumped less often. Long OCIs with a low efficiency filter means uncaptured particulate in the oil makes many more trips throughout the engine, which can increase wear vs if it had been caught by the filter.

It takes a lot of wear and damage to cause a human behind the wheel to be able to sense that an engine has suffered. An engine can have wear outside the factory specs and still feel pretty strong running. You'd have to put it on a dyno to prove it was weaker because of wear, or do an extensive tear down and measurement experiment. So even though an engine still seems to "run good" doesn't mean it's not suffered some extra wear from not keeping the oil cleaner.

 

[ToadU]

None of the discussion in this thread has been about longer OCIs. It's been about performing maintenance to OEM intervals using OEM specs for filters and fluids. Again if the only benefit as you admit is on the dyno and we are discussing fleet vehicles...which is what the op started with esentially...flipping cars....if the only benefit if what you can see on a dyno what have you won or gained for a daily driver? Nothing.

 

[bullwinkle]

The biggest thing is-the oil gets changed, on time, with something that is rated for the specs that the engine calls for. Anything else is gravy. I use synthetics and upper end filters because I generally got a good price on them-Ultras for roughly $4 each, Rotella T5 for under $5/gallon after rebate, sometimes even getting cash back after rebate (my M1 AP AAP purchase if the rebate comes through). Unfortunately commercial garages can't wait for deals like that, so they take the best deal they can get on 55 gallon drums, bulk delivery, etc. All of my vehicles will succumb to rust or likely outlive me, then my heirs can sell them or keep them.

 

[Jaymus]

I like a Motorcraft on my Ford and an AC Delco on my GM's.

In the end, I think it's whatever makes you feel happy or feel like you are doing what you think is best for you and your car lol. Sure, it probably doesn't matter as we all tend to take care of our vehicles around here and short of some kind of unavoidable mishap happening... all of our engines will make it well beyond 200,000 miles and be in great shape with a $2 oil filter or a $20 oil filter.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by ToadU
None of the discussion in this thread has been about longer OCIs. It's been about performing maintenance to OEM intervals using OEM specs for filters and fluids. Again if the only benefit as you admit is on the dyno and we are discussing fleet vehicles...which is what the op started with esentially...flipping cars....if the only benefit if what you can see on a dyno what have you won or gained for a daily driver? Nothing.


You missed my point of the discussion about engine wear vs filtration ... but that's OK.

You're in the business of making money by keeping engines running in a fleet (or someone else "flipping cars") even if there might be a bit more wear involved, and using the products that make the most money, whereas I'm in the "business" of ensuring the oil is as clean as possible on my personal vehicles, and spending $5 more per oil filter to do so is no big deal.