Need advice for KTM application and OCI

[boilermakerbill]

Hi Oil Experts

I have two questions if oyu have the time to offer some advice:

Q1: Viscosity

KTM (and most bike manufacturers) under pressure from Euro regulators have extended oil changes to 15,000km. I have always suspected this is too long for bikes as this could be up to 300 hours of run time on very high performance engines. Unofficially this was confirmed by a large oil company chemist but officially he has to refer to the "manufacturers recommended oil change intervals" blah blah ...

So while I do not have sophisticated testing equipment I set up a simple capillary tube with gravity feed reservoir and did some measurements. The same amount of oil at the same temperature was added to the reservoir and timed until the stream became a drop (approximately 500ul remaining in the reservoir for all tests).

The oil is Motul 7100 10w60 which (according to the blurb) is 100% PAO/Ester oil.

New oil: 40 seconds
3000km: 31 seconds
5000km: 16.5 seconds
New hydraulic 10W oil: 15 seconds

I do not know if oil viscosity is linear in this setup but the test seems to indicate to me that the 5000km was basically stuffed and had a viscosity about the same as 10W hydraulic oil.

Any experts on oil chemistry / physics like to comment on whether they think the oil is stuffed or not ??



Q2: Alkylated Napthalenes

As I understand the current technology alkylated napthalenes are the rolls royce of shear and hydrolytic resistant oils and should under normal circumstances last (keep viscosity values) about twice as long as PAO/ester oils ....

Again any comments from experts ??"

 

[We're Metals]

What kind of bike?

 

[boilermakerbill]

What kind of bike?

KTM 890R hence the interest as there are known cam issues with this bike

 

[kschachn]

Wow. Lot going on there.

 

[Oliveoil2]

Hi Oil Experts

I have two questions if oyu have the time to offer some advice:

Q1: Viscosity

KTM (and most bike manufacturers) under pressure from Euro regulators have extended oil changes to 15,000km. I have always suspected this is too long for bikes as this could be up to 300 hours of run time on very high performance engines. Unofficially this was confirmed by a large oil company chemist but officially he has to refer to the "manufacturers recommended oil change intervals" blah blah ...

So while I do not have sophisticated testing equipment I set up a simple capillary tube with gravity feed reservoir and did some measurements. The same amount of oil at the same temperature was added to the reservoir and timed until the stream became a drop (approximately 500ul remaining in the reservoir for all tests).

The oil is Motul 7100 10w60 which (according to the blurb) is 100% PAO/Ester oil.

New oil: 40 seconds
3000km: 31 seconds
5000km: 16.5 seconds
New hydraulic 10W oil: 15 seconds

I do not know if oil viscosity is linear in this setup but the test seems to indicate to me that the 5000km was basically stuffed and had a viscosity about the same as 10W hydraulic oil.

Any experts on oil chemistry / physics like to comment on whether they think the oil is stuffed or not ??



Q2: Alkylated Napthalenes

As I understand the current technology alkylated napthalenes are the rolls royce of shear and hydrolytic resistant oils and should under normal circumstances last (keep viscosity values) about twice as long as PAO/ester oils ....

Again any comments from experts ??"

Huh?

 

[dnewton3]

I put little faith in these home/garage experiments. Especially at/near room temp, where oils spend no appreciable time while in operation.
My advice? Don't overthink this.
Use the recommended/spec'd lubes and OCI as you feel best.

 

[ZeeOSix]

KTM (and most bike manufacturers) under pressure from Euro regulators have extended oil changes to 15,000km. I have always suspected this is too long for bikes as this could be up to 300 hours of run time on very high performance engines. Unofficially this was confirmed by a large oil company chemist but officially he has to refer to the "manufacturers recommended oil change intervals" blah blah ...

Forget the "recommendation" and change it much earlier ... unless your freedom to do so is choked to some ridiculous level of control.

 

[jeff78]

Any experts on oil chemistry / physics like to comment on whether they think the oil is stuffed or not ??

All any of us can tell you is that the oil's thinner now, which you already know. Why not send it out to a lab for used oil analysis? That will tell you if the oil is 'stuffed'.

No way I'm running 15000 km oil change intervals on any of my bikes.

 

[Cujet]

Although that oil is spec'd at a 60 with a really robust 23.6mm²/s at 100ºC, the HTHS is 5.5 (viscosity at 150ºC) is not as high as some racing 20W-50 oils.

 

[f355spider]

Wow. Lot going on there.

"Project Farm" kinda thing?...

 

[RoadDukie]

Change the oil when you feel the shifting getting notchy. In my experience, it's usually around 3000 -3500 miles. Cheap insurance.

 

[ktmDuke890r]

I have a 2023 890 Duke R and it gets used in traffic almost all the time. I want to mix track time and twisties in there but the main use is street. I don't think it is optimised for this stop/start mundane life.

The climate is hot in summer with rain and mild in winter with less rain.

I'm looking for a very heat resistant oil that will be changed every 5,000 km or less depending on degradation.

Currently using Motorex Formula 4T 15w50 which is a semi-synth. Was advised not to use Motul 7100 due to reduced gear and clutch protection.

Some recommend Penrite MC4ST PAO Ester and was wondering if their higher Zinc content is for hotter Australian climates.

Definitely interested in taking steps to improve protection and reduce heat with good oil.

 

[We're Metals]

KTM 890R hence the interest as there are known cam issues with this bike

No oil is going to save the affected Cams. Its a metallurgy issue.

I use Liquimoly 10w-50 and 15w-50 in my 890 Adventure R and in my previous KTM 1090 with good results.

 

[Cujet]

This seems to help.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Crazy wear ... has to be a lack of lubrication. Then once the hard case layer is worn down and through to the softer metal, it's game over.

 

[We're Metals]

As a follow up to this thread. Ive hit 5,000 miles on my 890R (will be increasing as riding season starting soon) and I just did the 3rd oil change. No metal after using Liquimoly 15w-50 for a year basically. Swapped in some Liquimoly 10w-50 for good measure. Bike runs well except for an electrical gremlin which sometimes kills the electrics when key on.

 

[ZeeOSix]

As a follow up to this thread. Ive hit 5,000 miles on my 890R (will be increasing as riding season starting soon) and I just did the 3rd oil change. No metal after using Liquimoly 15w-50 for a year basically.

Is there a magnetic drain plug in that engine? That would be a good way to monitor for crazy cam wear.

 

[We're Metals]

Is there a magnetic drain plug in that engine? That would be a good way to monitor for crazy cam wear.

No magnets that im aware of. They say, my 2023 is not an affected model. I'll check the valves at 10,000 miles.

 

[midobo]

There are two magnets in each suction screen.
I've never seen reports of significant metal on them.

 

[dubber09]

I had a 600cc Yamaha and changed oil every 4k km, about 2500 mi. No racing, just street bike with some spirited riding at times.

Here is a video I found, for your enjoyment: