nasty nasty cooling system

[metroplex]

Car: 2000 Ford Crown Vic, 4.6L SOHC V8.
Factory ordered in 4/00 with 16 miles on the odo.
Apparently they wanted to see what was the big fuss with this factory order (handling package, 3.55s, dual exhaust, etc...)

Anyhow, here's my service record:

4/00 - car was bought
2/01 - drained radiator, refilled with fresh 50/50
8/01 - changed H20 pump, refilled with fresh 50/50 (changing the H20 pump requires draining the radiator)
7/02 - new RT-1144 t-stat, drained radiator, refilled with fresh 50/50
2/03 - drained radiator, cleaned degas bottle, ran water through the system twice to get rid of old coolant mixture. Refilled with fresh 50/50

Total mileage: 7500+
In almost three years of ownership, I've basically drained the radiator once a year (more or less).

I've never seen so much crud before in a cooling system.

I did add Redline Water Wetter at one point - maybe that's the cause of the crud buildup?

I changed the H20 pump because I thought it was seeping. I installed a stock Mustang GT/Cobra water pump (has a more efficient impeller suited for high RPM use).

 

[White 03]

Did the car orginally come with the extended life coolant, the orange stuff?

If so did you continue to use the orange stuff?

Could someone else have added some green stuff?

My point is the two don't get along with one another from what I have read. I think Ford has a TSB out on mixing the two.

 

[UncleS2]

The gunk: maybe from motor oil contamination(bad head gasket, for instance?) Or maybe from one of the new, "super-duper" trouble-prone antifreezes? I dunno, but if it was my car I'd sure check for both. I'd also fill with clean water, run until well warmed up, & drain it two or three times. If there's a drain cock on the block, use that one too. After that, I'd consider it well emptied of previous antifreeze, & refill with a 50% mix of good ole ethylene glycol antifreeze(regular Prestone, Peak, house brand, whatever) with a healthy dose of RMI-25 in it. I'd run that a few months, watch it like a hawk, & see if any problems were cropping up. If they showed up again, back to the old drawing board to find out for sure what's causing it.

 

[metroplex]

The Ford came with GREEN coolant.

I do not believe the headgaskets are bad - no oil is floating on the top of the coolant, and no coolant is coming out of the oil pan (not mixing with oil, etc).

The only non-stock things I've done:

grounded heater core
grounded radiator
180F t-stat (for the custom dynotune calibration)
and Redline Water wetter about a year ago.

What's RMI?

I ran water through the system two times and drained the radiator. At the second point, the drained fluid was almost clear (slight greenish hue).

I refilled with regular Prestone.

The 2003 E_250 still has the ORIGINAL Premium Gold Ford coolant. I want to switch that over to the good old Prestone stuff.

 

[jjbula]

Can you further describe the crud. Dirty, oily, color, flaky? Flakes would be bad.

 

[metroplex]

Nothing solid drained out of the system, BUT the hoses were clogged with residue - "gunk" that was oily.

The bottom of the degas bottle was reddish/brown with lots of deposits (globules stuck to the walls, along with film/residue).

I have the heater core and radiator grounded.

I do not know if Redline Water Wetter was the cause of this gunk. It was brownish/yellow.

 

[porterdog]

RMI

 

[cryptokid]

somthing that has awalys worked for me in the past is to fill up with 50/50 mix of water and heavy duty degreaser. change it daily for a week and then flush good with water untill no more bubbles come out. by this time the coolant system is usualy free of build up.

never hurt anything.

 

[metroplex]

Here's some more crazy info:

My 1981 T-bird had the coolant last serviced November of 2001. I added water wetter last april

I just changed the coolant today and guess what?
Clean as a whistle!!!

No electrolysis (VERY low voltage across coolant to ground) and NO gunk whatsoever on the insides of the hoses.

It has a copper radiator (aftermarket Modine).

So what gives?

Why would my Vic's cooling system look like sh*t while a 23+ year old car that has its coolant regularly serviced every 1-2 years (as is the Vic) looks spotless???

It makes no sense!

 

[metroplex]

I think I may have an idea:

Has anyone ever used Texaco anti-freeze?

The green stuff that is. I used to use it in all the vehicles and I did notice SOME gunk in the T-bird.

However, the Texaco anti-freeze never came out of the bottle pi$$ clear like Prestone, Zerex, or Peak. Texaco looked like old anti-freeze, sort of murky and opaque but green.

Prestone is almost clear, as is Zerex.

Now if the Texaco you guys used WAS crystal clear like the Zerex, Prestone, Peak, etc.... then I suspect the store I got it from is using unethical business protocols - ala packaging recycled coolant as new coolant sold at a low price.

Now if the texaco you guys use WAS murky like mine, then I suspect the anti-freeze formula itself is sub-par.

Any ideas?

 

[Malibu]

metroplex, your Ford came from the factory with a mixture of Ford Brand antifreeze and distilled water in it.

All your troubles could have been avoided by simply using this same forumulation whenever the coolant needs to be replaced. Distilled water is available in 1 gallon jugs for $1.50 at any major supermarket. Clean rain water or snow melt water will also work well.

 

[metroplex]

I don't see the point in your post.

All I've EVER used is green anti-freeze and DISTILLED water. $0.99/gal for distilled water.

Ford anti-freeze was quoted at $10/gal (the VC-4A) or more!!!

For the past 23 years, all we've ever done is use green anti-freeze and distilled water in the T-bird's cooling system. No gunk, no fuss. NOT ONCE did we use "Ford Brand" anti-freeze. It was just too expensive and I don't see the point when aftermarket brands are less expensive and meet the same specifications.

For the past 3 years of owning the Vic, all I've ever done is use green anti-freeze and distilled water. There's so much crud in there its not even funny. either its because of the aluminum radiator and cylinder heads or its because of the Texaco stuff.

I used Prestone and it seemed to clear up the T-bird's cooling system.

I never use tap water, rain water, or non-distilled water as the coolant in my cooling systems. I use it to flush but NEVER as a final fillup solvent.

Ford brand anti-freeze is out of the question because its a scam. If Ford somehow changed its system to only work well w/ its proprietary formulas, then its not my fault. I'll just have to find superior replacements (FULL Copper radiator) and stick with the 23+ year old regime of green stuff + distilled water.

[ February 27, 2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: metroplex ]

 

[Malibu]

metroplex, as you noted, the metals and gaskets in the cooling systems of modern cars are different than they were 22 years ago. Using OEM coolant assures reliability and durability because the factory engineers have already figured out the chemistry for us. Experimenting with non-OEM coolants and aftermarket antifreezes is and additive fine as long as you can afford the possible consequences. No one can tell you precisely what those consequences may be because none of us are Ford engineers.

 

[metroplex]

I spoke to a Ford engineer that worked on the water pump design and said that as long as you drain and refill with green stuff + distilled water, you'll be fine. There's nothing exotic about the modular motor cooling system (4.6L SOHC V8 and 5.4L SOHC V8). I can understand Honda, toyota, and other imports' need for OEM fluids but not Ford.

 

[Malibu]

The owners manual = the official voice of all the Ford engineers. No one here can help with problems caused by the use of non-OEM parts, filters and fluids and non compliance with the owners manual instructions. In your case you used an aftermarket antifreeze, a non-OEM water pump and a
an aftermarket coolant additive.

 

[MNgopher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Malibu:
The owners manual = the official voice of all the Ford engineers. No one here can help with problems caused by the use of non-OEM parts, filters and fluids and non compliance with the owners manual instructions. In your case you used an aftermarket antifreeze, a non-OEM water pump and a
an aftermarket coolant additive.

---

I have a bottle of Texaco green stuff, along with a bottle of Prestone and a bottle of Peak. They all look the same. No differences that can be seen with the naked eye. I'm not nearly as concerned with brands here, unlike oil, if you couldn't tell!

Both my F150's are running the regular Zerex Green stuff right now, with no issues.

Don't know what to tell ya! Only theories: bad antifreeze, REALLY bad water, or some other interaction between the water wetter and the antifreeze. At this point it sounds like time for a good flush, run for a bit, and then go again with the flush.

My non-OEM fluids use has caused no issues to my cumulative 240,000 miles on my F150's, Malibu. Could it be that these fluids are equal to and better than the overpriced (in many cases - motorcraft oil may be an exception) OEM fluids?

 

[Malibu]

MNgopher, on another forum someone sent samples 3 brands of popular antifreezes (Havoline Extended Life, Peak and Toyota Red) into Titan Labs in Denver for a virgin analysis. All three turned out to have major chemical differences in their inhibitor packages.

Also on other forums, engine rebuilders tell us the number #1 cause of engine wear and failure is improper maintainance of the cooling system.

 

[metroplex]

Proper maintenance = regular maintenance.

Also, "extended life" coolants are NOT the same as the regular green stuff. I believe you just quoted three VERY different tpyes of anti-freeze.

Peak regular, Havoline DEX-COOL, and Toyota!!!

Compare: Zerex regular Prestone Regular, Peak Regular, and say... Supertech Regular. This would be a much better comparison than comparing a Dex-Cool to a regular and then to an Import anti-freeze.

MNGopher: So your Texaco green stuff (black bottle) looks the SAME as the Prestone, etc??
Meaning - pi$$ clear green (very transluscent, almost like water).

Then I know what the problem was - the Texaco I used to use looked like 1-2 year old ethylene glycol that came out of the radiator - murky but clean and opaque green.
The store has questionable business practices but now that I know I won't use their car products anymore.

We've never used OEM fluids/oils - ever. I'll use products that meet or exceed OEM specifications but I never go over to Ford and buy their brand products. Their brand = usually 2-3 times more expensive w/ subpar specs.

I.e.

Motorcraft 5w30, $1.33/qt - not that bad but the specs aren't as good as Chevron Supreme 5w30 at $1.08/qt.

There are better products in the aftermarket that cost far less. I'm not too sure about Imports (Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc) because I've always been a Ford person. I worked on an Audi once - the hood latch broke right away so that prevented me from working on it. It required weird lubricants and fluids - not the stuff you could get at Walmart.

My motivation for purchasing a Ford is that its reliable and I can service it via parts and products from retailers like Walmart, Pep Boys, Autozone, etc... and NOT have to go back to the stealership.

Anyhow - if anyone else can confirm that Texaco Anti-Freeze (NON extended life, just the regular black bottle) looks clear like Prestone, Peak, or Zerex - I'd appreciate it.

The Texaco I used to use was opaque and green. Not transluscent like Prestone, Peak, or Zerex.

[ February 28, 2003, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]

 

[MNgopher]

All the antifreeze i have looks the same. Peak, texaco, and prestone, Zerex is in use in my trucks. Not an opaque green.

Since the three anitfreeze samples you refer to are different types of antifreeze Malibu, it only makes sense that they would have different charecteristics, since they aren't the same type of antifreeze.

All we are talking about here is your boring, basic, simple green antifreeze that has been in use forever.

 

[metroplex]

MNGopher: Ok thanks. I'll stay far far away from that store.

If you're ever in my area, don't buy automotive stuff from National Wholesale Liquidators in Lodi, NJ!!! They have great apples in the produce department, but their Mobil 1 ATF and Texaco Anti-Freeze (as I've found out) are apparently recycled or something.