My experience with heat transfer fluids.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Messages
882
Location
North Carolina
Among other things I am responsible for maintaining several large cooling systems that use glycol for its antifreeze properties.

Glycol comes in several forms; ethylene, and propylene are common types used for heat transfer systems.

In my experience most automotive cooling systems use ethylene glycol.

Pure ethylene glycol is very stable:

Until you add water to it, heat it, and aerate it.
Remove any of the three reactionary factors and it remains relatively stable.

Glycol is inferior to water as a heat transfer fluid.
Pure glycol does not transfer heat very well compared to water.
Glycol is added to water solely for antifreeze and boil over protection.

Basically when glycol is mixed with water; more heat, and more aeration equals more decomposition.

The decomposition products contain an acid.
The acidic decomposition product attacks most substances in the cooling system.

To counteract this unhappy circumstance glycol based coolants contain additives.

These additives are designed to retard the reactions that produce acids, and neutralize the acids once formed.

For routine maintenance we monitor Ph.
When Ph is below a certain number (I believe 7.0 is the cutoff)
either the additive is replenished or the coolant is changed out.

In addition to additive replenishment we use a bypass filtration system that is based on 15 micron filtration of the coolant.

Dow chemical tells me that with proper maintenance ethylene glycol can be maintained for more than 20 years!

Its the additive package that makes a huge difference, as well as keeping air and sediments out of the system.

It is common knowledge in my industry that a sealed cooling system is superior to an open to air system (using glycol).
In other words if the expansion tank is not pressurized it will expose the coolant to more air which will allow more acids to be produced.

And as a final somewhat non-applicable note:

In my world of megawatt RF transmitters; pure water (distilled) is preferred due to its non corrosive and electrically non conductive nature.

We even go to to the point of maintaining an electrical conductivity monitor, and a Ph monitor with remote alarms.

Of course our transmitters are never shut down.

And still some of the more modern transmitter designs spec glycol based coolant for boil over protection.

I wont go into the pure water systems that use vapor phase cooling as this does not apply to automotive cooling (normally !).


Rickey.
 
"What kind of transmitters are these? Commercial radio transmitters?"

Commercial IOT based 8VSB DTV transmitters.(UHF broadcast Digital Television)

The cooling systems utilize 75 gallons or more coolant. 14 or more GPM at 90 PSI per HPA.
There is more than 20 Kw waste heat continuously produced in each High Power Amplifier.
Some transmitters use as many as 3 HPA's
 
I might add that glycol based transmitter cooling systems have many similarities with automotive liquid based cooling systems.

The differences would be almost no cast iron in transmitters and possible differences in gasket materials (gaskets are generally avoided in transmitters)

Lots of aluminum, brass, copper, and plastic (PVC and Teflon) are used. The seals in the coolant pumps are Teflon based.

And transmitter coolant systems operate at a lower temperature compared to automotive systems. Usually around 160 F.

The reduced temperature alone reportedly contributes greatly to extended coolant life in transmitter service.

Rickey
 
I don't understand what exactly is the equipment and enviroment of what you are cooling in your field? It sounds like you are talking about large radio transmitters. But why do you need anti-freze in them and why not just water with an inhibitor?

Water is a better coolant and ethylene glycol only slightly raising the boiling point which a pressurized system can work around. The main reason for glycol is freeze point depression. Is this equipment operated at cold ambient temperatures.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't understand what exactly is the equipment and enviroment of what you are cooling in your field? It sounds like you are talking about large radio transmitters. But why do you need anti-freze in them and why not just water with an inhibitor?

Water is a better coolant and ethylene glycol only slightly raising the boiling point which a pressurized system can work around. The main reason for glycol is freeze point depression. Is this equipment operated at cold ambient temperatures.



http://broadcastengineering.com/test_measurement/iot-cooling-contamination-0215/

You are very observant sir.

And pure water Vs: glycol/water has been argued over and over for this application.
Pure water (and I mean lab pure) is required for some older equipment due to contact with >20 Kvdc.
This type equipment has a 24/7 bypass water purification system attached to it.

The industry view today is that if there is the slightest chance that a multi-million dollar transmitter "might" be damaged by freezing....

I prefer water as well, less hassle.
There are folks south of NC that have converted to pure water.
Pure water does not work as well with RF dummy loads however.

I realize that I have gone far afield here.

The point that I am trying to make is that given the proper environment:
Water/glycol coolant can have a very long useful lifetime.
Probably not gonna happen in an automobile however.

Rickey.
 
OK got it. I guess they want to play it safe with antifreeze in the rare invent that the equipment was exposed to freezing temperatures.

Yeah I agree antifreeze itself last a long time. It can be recycled and reused. The inhibitor pack does not alst indefinitely in an automobile engine though or even sealed on the shelf. It get contaminated from even very minute combustion product entering the coolant overtime.

That's what HD diesels do is use a coolant filter and the filter can add inhibitors back in. They can run the coolant many miles and maybe never change it for the lifetime of the engine, but I'm not an HD mechanic so I'm not totally sure of how long they run it.

Most of the discussion here is really about the inhibitor package, OAT vs. HOAT vs. IAT, Dexcool, etc.
 
kind of surprised non conductive chemically inert fluid isn't used.

So I take it know of these are totally submersed in liquid.
 
Originally Posted By: wapacz
kind of surprised non conductive chemically inert fluid isn't used.

So I take it know of these are totally submersed in liquid.






Some transmitters do:

Some use oil for cooling
cool.gif


There is no standard method of cooling, it depends on the manufacturers criteria in regard to a particular product.

Rickey.
 
Yeah I have seen oil cooling set ups home computer that people mod to be liquid cooled. Some even went and submerged everything but the disk drives in oil. I can remember a few article where people experimented with Flourinert and dry ice or liquid nitrogen. The liquid nitrogen ended up being to called and caused the computer not to work.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom