Motor Oil 107

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
1,623
Location
Sarasota, Florida
(I know this is old stuff but for the newer guys, read on.)

Motor oil 107
Chapter Seven. What is the terminology from SAE and API.


Many think that the “W” in 10W-30 means “winter”.
From SAE J300 p.2:
"Two series of viscosity grades are defined in Table (1): (a) those containing the letter W and (b) those without. Single viscosity grade oils with the letter W are defined by maximum low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities and a minimum kinematic viscosity at 100C. Single grade oils without the letter W are based on a set of minimum and maximum kinematic viscosities at 100C and a minimum high shear rate viscosity at 150C. The shear rate will depend on the test method. Multigrade grade oils are defined by both of these criteria....
The W is just a designation of one type of testing vs another. I personally asked them if it stood for "winter" and they flatly said "no".

What is the viscosity of the various weight oils? The definitions are as follows:

From SAE J300, viscosities at 212 F...

20, range - 5.6 to 9.2
30, 9.3 - 12.4
40, 12.5 - 16.2
50, 16.3 - 21.8
60, 21.9 - 26.1


By a modified analysis the min. viscosity at 302 F...

20, 2.6
30, 2.9
40, 2.9 - 3.7
50, 3.7
60, 3.7

Note again that the difference between the 20W and 60 weight oils at 302 F is only about 1 (one). Whereas the difference in viscosity at 104 F is 120 units. The 20W has a viscosity of 40 and the 60W a viscosity of 160. The difference at startup is even higher, probably 250 or 300.

The American Petroleum Institute, API, and Society of Automotive Engineers, SAE, have rated engine oil performance over the years. We have seen the ratings go from SA, SB, SC, SD, SE, SF, SG, SH, SJ, SL with SM to follow. SI and SK were eliminated as they are used by other businesses. There are over 3 dozen tests that oil now must pass in order to make the next higher rating. The tests are defined by the American Society for Testing and Materials, ASTM. Some tests have progressed to a zero tolerance level. For example there can be no sticking of any piston rings any more. I will compare the SL rated oil to the previous SJ oil in a few categories. For simplicity I will skip the units of measurement:


.......S J........S L......

.......30........20......maximum cam plus lifter wear
........9.........7.8.....sludge build up
........5.........8.9.....varnish rating (more is better)
.......60.......45.......high temperature deposits
.......17.......10.......high temperature volatility

Other categories include: Resistance to rust, resistance to foaming, resistance to oil consumption, homogeneity and miscibility, flow reduction with varying amounts of absorbed moisture, gelation index and others.

As one can see just going from the previous SJ to the SL rating is a significant improvement. I cannot wait to get the upcoming SM oil into my cars.

Regarding cool whether gel formation, a small except from SAE j300 1999:
4. Because engine pumping, cranking and starting are all important at low temperatures the selection of an oil for winter operation should consider both the viscosity required for oil flow as well as cranking and starting, at the lowest expected ambient temperature.
Pumping viscosity is a measure of an oils ability to flow...during the initial stages of operation. Test in ASTM D 4684. ....samples are tested after a slow cool cycle. This cycle has predicted as failures several SAE 10W-30 and 10W-40 oils which are known to have suffered pumping failures in the field after short-term (2 days or less) cooling. These field failures are believed to be the result of the oil forming gel structures that result in excessive yield stress and viscosity of the engine oil...
A.2.1...After preliminary warming, the sample is subjected to a controlled temperature/time cycle over 5 1/2 to 7 days. The cycle reproduces ...instability or reversion which has occurred during storage of oils in moderately cold cyclic conditions. Recent work shows relevance to engine oil pumpability failure. Oils exhibiting pour reversion have solids resulting from wax gel formation, at temperatures significantly higher than their ASTM D 97 pour points.
Extracted, from ASTM D 4485-03 Standard Specification for Performance of Engine Oils, copyright ASTM International, 100 Barr Harbor Drive, Wets Conshohocken, PA 19428, USA.

My point is that tests are not just laboratory concoctions. They design tests to match real life conditions.

I use 5W-20 Pennzoil mineral based multigrade oil in my Expedition as it has many of the low temperature characteristics of higher weight synthetic oils. My '04 manual states that the SUV is delivered with a Ford semi-synthetic oil and although regular oil can be used they recommend a semi or full synthetic oil. For the differential gear oil they used 75W-140 in my ‘98 Expedition but now recommend 75W-90.

Please note that it makes no difference what oil you are using. The 0W-20 Mobil 1 that is SL rated meets the same criteria as that SL rated 10W-30 synthetic or mineral based Pennzoil. That SJ or in particular that SH oil some people are looking for (from their older automotive owners manual) is no where near as good as any SL oil of today. Always use the most currently available, highest rated motor oil, even in the oldest, most worn engine. You may require a thicker grade but just make sure it is SL rated.

The SH rating was used in oils starting 1993. The SJ rating started in 1997 while the SL became effective in 2001 oils. According to ASTM D 4485, SL rated oils are superior to previous oils and from:
X2.3.1 and 2: SL oil is for use in current and all earlier passenger cars, sport utility vehicles, vans, and light trucks. This SL rated oil can be used in engines requiring SJ and all earlier categories.

See: American Society for Testing and Materials- www.astm.org
........Society of Automotive Engineers- www.sae.org
........American Petroleum Institute- www.api.org

aehaas
 
quote:

Single viscosity grade oils with the letter W are defined by maximum low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities

I'm sure their choice of the letter "W" to designate testing for maximum low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities is a coincidence. Must have been the 23rd set of tests the API came up with (or 21st if they skipped "I" and "K" as they are apt to do).

quote:

I personally asked them if it stood for "winter" and they flatly said "no".

Seems authoritative. Why don't you see if "they" know who really killed Kennedy....


Edit: Does not this whole discussion about the difference between 'W' and 'non-W' viscosities completely support my claim that you made a big error in "Motor Oil 103"?

your quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A 10W-30 multigrade mineral based oil is made from a 10 weight oil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My response:

This statement is not accurate. A 10W-30 may start with a base oil that meets the '10W' cold cranking specification...but that's a whole different animal than the base oil being an SAE viscosity of '10'. Apples and oranges.

[ January 24, 2005, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Matt89 ]
 
quote:

I'm sure their choice of the letter "W" to designate testing for maximum low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities is a coincidence. Must have been the 23rd set of tests the API came up with (or 21st if they skipped "I" and "K" as they are apt to do).

lol.gif
lol.gif
lol.gif
lol.gif


quote:

I personally asked them if it stood for "winter" and they flatly said "no".

I?
confused.gif
They?
confused.gif

(visions of Tonto - what's this "W(e)" $--t, whiteman?"

On the other hand ..if you and I were having a discussion ..and you had cause to ask me if this
 -
was a stop sign ...I would automatically flatly say "NO! absolutely not!! What could possibly give you that idea? My gosh, man! What are you thinking?"
grin.gif


[ January 24, 2005, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
 
From Matt89:
"your quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A 10W-30 multigrade mineral based oil is made from a 10 weight oil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This statement is not accurate. A 10W-30 may start with a base oil that meets the '10W' cold cranking specification...but that's a whole different animal than the base oil being an SAE viscosity of '10'. Apples and oranges."


My response:
The original statement demonstrates that a mineral based 10W-30 multi-grade oil is based on a thin oil with a grade of around 10 wt. The actual viscosity was not mentioned.
While the synthetic based 10W-30 multi-grade oil is based on a thicker base oil, around 30 wt.
The irony, and part difficult to understand by many people in my experience, is that the thicker based synthetic oil is actually thinner at start-up (75 F or lower).

aehaas
 
quote:


By a modified analysis the min. viscosity at 302 F...

20, 2.6
30, 2.9
40, 2.9 - 3.7
50, 3.7
60, 3.7

I don't believe that SAE weight and HTHS viscosity correlate always like that. You would at least have to differentiate between mineral and synthetic oil. The above figures seem to be very rough ballpark figures.
 
This manifesto of yours is riddled with errors, but I'll just point out a couple, otherwise I'll have to start charging.
tongue.gif


quote:

Originally posted by AEHaas:
From SAE J300, viscosities at 212 F...

20, range - 5.6 to 9.2
30, 9.3 - 12.4
40, 12.5 - 16.2
50, 16.3 - 21.8
60, 21.9 - 26.1


By a modified analysis the min. viscosity at 302 F...

20, 2.6
30, 2.9
40, 2.9 - 3.7
50, 3.7
60, 3.7

Note again that the difference between the 20W and 60 weight oils at 302 F is only about 1 (one).


There is no HTHS requirement for SAE vicosity grade 20W oil. Read SAE paper #980702 and then tell us if that "1 (one)" difference has no affect.
 
The data I provided is directly from page 3, SAE J300 May 2004.

The article you suggested looks interesting, I ordered it. I will comment after studying the document, thanks for the reference.

aehaas
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top