More Tesla investigations

[Kiwi_ME]

I agree with all those comments about Tesla but I still think they still have a great future because the things they are not good at are easier to get right than the things they are good at. I'm no fan of FSD but what they do with their R&D budget is no business of mine, but I would not pay extra for that feature.
My Hyundai EV is simple enough with few superfluous features and is serviceable by myself, or the dealer only 5 min walk down the street, or any body shop if required. I don't even have on-board navigation. It has a "go" pedal and a "stop" pedal.
Most days driving locally I barely use 10% of the range and that's easily recovered overnight with the charger it came with using $2 of electricity that comes out of the wall. Where that commodity comes from is not my concern.

 

[ecotourist]

I have a Tesla and it did something a bit like this last week. Driving at what passes for highway speeds in this area (80 Km/hr or 50 MPH). A vehicle (a half ton truck) from the oncoming traffic crossed in front of me. There was no issue and I wouldn't have even slowed down but my Tesla braked fairly heavily, down to about 20 or 30 Km/hr, then sped up again.

The only real danger would have been getting rear ended.

This sounds a bit like that situation where the Tesla Model S failed to recognize the semi trailer truck doing much the same thing. That Tesla ran under the trailer and the driver was killed. So maybe they over react in that sort of situation.

I've been thinking about this situation of an oncoming vehicle suddenly crossing your path. An experienced driver decides within seconds whether the vehicle crossing in front of him will be a problem or not. What you are assessing is whether the crossing vehicle will clear your path before you get there, with some room to spare.

To do this accurately your vehicle disregards the fact that the oncoming vehicle is briefly coming straight towards you at some point in its turn. Then it must assess the likely length of the vehicle, whether it's pulling a trailer, its initial speed and whether it is speeding up or slowing down. Or likely to stop entirely in front of you - because something or somebody is in its way. Another factor is the traction on the roadway - good, or likely to result in a spin. Finally it has to assess how long it's going to take for you to get to the path of that crossing vehicle. And how does it assess the speed of a vehicle crossing at 90 degrees to its path? How does it know whether that vehicle is under control - or completely out of control, as often seen in Russian driving videos?

As a driver you do all of that within a couple of seconds and slow down a bit, hit the brakes hard, or just carry on without doing anything. Programming a computer to do all that would be a major major major undertaking. And getting it just a little bit wrong will result in deaths.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I've been thinking about this situation of an oncoming vehicle suddenly crossing your path. An experienced driver decides within seconds whether the vehicle crossing in front of him will be a problem or not. What you are assessing is whether the crossing vehicle will clear your path before you get there, with some room to spare.

To do this accurately your vehicle disregards the fact that the oncoming vehicle is briefly coming straight towards you at some point in its turn. Then it must assess the likely length of the vehicle, whether it's pulling a trailer, its initial speed and whether it is speeding up or slowing down. Or likely to stop entirely in front of you - because something or somebody is in its way. Another factor is the traction on the roadway - good, or likely to result in a spin. Finally it has to assess how long it's going to take for you to get to the path of that crossing vehicle. And how does it assess the speed of a vehicle crossing at 90 degrees to its path? How does it know whether that vehicle is under control - or completely out of control, as often seen in Russian driving videos?

As a driver you do all of that within a couple of seconds and slow down a bit, hit the brakes hard, or just carry on without doing anything. Programming a computer to do all that would be a major major major undertaking. And getting it just a little bit wrong will result in deaths.

What if the driver is looking over their shoulder, or adjusting the radio, is upset, drunk, or just not paying attention for whatever reason?
What if it is dark at night and the driver is unfamiliar with the location?
The car can see 360*.
The real benefit will be taking driver error out of the equation. Computers follow rules; people not so much.

 

[PandaBear]

Computers can’t think. They never will be able to think. The life form brain function is unattainable. Try to catch a fly, it isn’t easy.

Nor can 50% of the drivers on the road think, and catching a fly is easy if your processor is fast enough and sensor accurate enough. I've worked with robots that can motion control to something more precise than a fly faster than human can, every single time.

 

[PandaBear]

I can understand why some folks think a super electronic computer loaded car would be desireable. The less you like cars the more the car can and will do for you.

For me the tesla is just huge money with poor quality build and design. 12 grand to swap the battery pack.
The new tesla design has the battery pack glued into the car aluminum structure. So you get in an accident or the batteries go bad. No problem... just spend another 90 to 125 grand and replace the car.
Tesla wont allow shops info to service them or sell parts to them. Its like apple. They forgot you paid the money and bought the car. Its still the property of apple or tesla and they are in charge of it.
That thinking.. the complex systems.. the poor fit and finish and problems keeping the car happy in cold are reasons i hate tesla.
I want a manual trans. Few computers.. and non direct fuel injection. Anti lock brakes are ok...but no start stop stuff. No lane assist...no get coffee icon cause the car is staring at my eyes and thinks i should stop a while.
If electric car sales go way up. How will the overly taxed grid manage ?

People spend money on toys, not tools. This is why people buy Mercedes and BMW, Supersize SUVs and Crewcab. They also spend a lot of money on entertainment and other nonsense in a car.

Regarding to computer control in cars outside of entertainment, they keep you alive by igniting your airbag faster than you can brace for an impact, they stop your car before you can react if someone ran to your side of the lane, they try to keep your car going straight if you steer into another lane drunk, they ABS your car so you don't fishtail, they keep your engine running more efficiently and more powerful by avoiding lean high compression situation (drive by wire), keep your engine from overheating so you can run just right under turbo boost.

So yeah, you do want those super electronic computer if you want 40mpg instead of 24mpg.

Regarding to gluing battery to the car, there are ways to replace them. People used to say Apple gluing batteries to iPhone and you cannot replace them. Well the replacement batteries comes with new glue strips and tools to replace the old ones, for just a few bucks. It isn't a big deal really, manufacturing has rework instruction and they can fix a lot of stuff in repair and rebuild aftermarket eventually.

Now poor fit and finish, etc, you will get that from any startup. So if you don't like it maybe you need to wait 5-10 years and buy a Toyota instead.

 

[ZeeOSix]

What if the driver is looking over their shoulder, or adjusting the radio, is upset, drunk, or just not paying attention for whatever reason?

I think people who use driver assist features and AP are the same ones who rely more and more on those systems and become more inattentive, and more detached from driving with full attention and awareness of what's going on.

 

[demarpaint]

I think people who use driver assist features and AP are the same ones who rely more and more on those systems and become more inattentive, and more detached from driving with full attention and awareness of what's going on.

I agree. And commercials like the GMC Sierra Commercial with Queen's We Will Rock You playing in the background while the driver decides to clap his hands to the beat imo is fuel for Darwin Award Candidates, or Organ Donors. Especially when he's passing the 18 wheeler. Common sense at some point has to come into play, unfortunately it's something a lot of people lack these days.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I agree. And commercials like the GMC Sierra Commercial with Queen's We Will Rock You playing in the background while the driver decides to clap his hands to the beat imo is fuel for Darwin Award Candidates, or Organ Donors. Especially when he's passing the 18 wheeler. Common sense at some point has to come into play, unfortunately it's something a lot of people lack these days.

Yep, that's the kind of commercials I was mentioning earlier. Plus in that commercial, they are pulling a trailer, lol.

How about the commercial where a guy and gal are driving around trying to decide where to eat, and so engrossed in the discussion that nobody is paying attention to driving. Then the car nanny slams on the brakes in near emergency fashion, and the car stops inches from rear ending a truck with "Tacos" on it, so they both then decide they want tacos. Geeez, it just reinforces people to think their stupidity will be prevented by the nannies in the vehicle. How about they actually paying attention and drive.

 

[demarpaint]

Yep, that's the kind of commercials I was mentioning earlier. Plus in that commercial, they are pulling a trailer, lol.

How about the commercial where a guy and gal are driving around trying to decide where to eat, and so engrossed in the discussion that nobody is paying attention to driving. Then the car nanny slams on the brakes in near emergency fashion, and the car stops inches from rear ending a truck with "Tacos" on it, so they both then decide they want tacos. Geeez, it just reinforces people to think their stupidity will be prevented by the nannies in the vehicle. How about they actually paying attention and drive.

Bingo! I have an explanation, but it will get me banished from Bitog if I post it. Lets just say I fear we're doomed.

I wonder if GM could get sued for that kind of commercial if some moron takes it seriously. Time will tell.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars.

 

[Job]

Nor can 50% of the drivers on the road think, and catching a fly is easy if your processor is fast enough and sensor accurate enough. I've worked with robots that can motion control to something more precise than a fly faster than human can, every single time.

Not if the fly disappears and hides. What your processor going to do then? No machine thinks. So many times a fly has to be searched for, unless you want to sit down and it lands on your nose again. They usually are sitting somewhere quietly waiting. Not in a million years will a machine be made that can think like a fly. There never will be motion control equal to millions of examples occurring in nature all the time. A pelican can see a fish, stop suddenly in mid air, fold body, dive, get the fish, come out and fly away. The processing speed to do all that? It really isn’t about just processor speed, thinking. Not sure we even know what thinking is.

 

[Johnmpb]

The problems continue.

Sudden braking at freeway speeds.
https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-tesla-unexpected.amp

I actually experienced this first hand while driving with my BIL in his model x. We were about to pass a bridge and suddenly the Tesla hit the brakes. Def woke me up

 

[DwightFrye]

I seem to recall an incident where a vehicle, not a Tesla but another brand that has the emergency braking system when it detects an object was driving on the freeway on a windy day. One of those clear plastic bags like are used for your dry cleaning blew across the highway in front of the car and activated the anti collision system.

A human probably wouldn't have slammed on the brakes. A big challenge for all of the FSD developers will be how to deal with situations like that one.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Bjorn Nyland said in a video about a year+ ago that he thought that the high-frequency modulation (PWM, used to regulated current) in LED headlights or DRLs from approaching trucks could cause the Model 3 to suddenly brake.

Regarding to gluing battery to the car, there are ways to replace them.

But the battery is not "glued to the car" like a smartphone battery is double-sided taped into the casing. It would be more correct to say that Tesla "pot" their cells and serpentine cooling channels into slabs. I can't see that's it's repairable nor is it intended to be.

 

[ecotourist]

The real benefit will be taking driver error out of the equation. Computers follow rules; people not so much.

The problem is that in my situation (where there was absolutely no problem with the crossing vehicle and I wouldn't have even slowed down) my Tesla braked hard. If someone had been close behind they would have rear ended us.

The computer was doing the safe thing as far as the crossing vehicle was concerned but an unsafe thing as far as any vehicle behind us. So the "rules" my Tesla was following need some work.

And this is only one of many tricky situations. And it was not all that tricky either. I wasn't using the Tesla self driving app either - it's just a basic Model 3. I suspect true self driving is a long ways off.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Autonomous driving cars do not exist.
The cost of development, exploration and test of any product is high. But the promise autonomous cars is incredible.
And the idea that drivers are better is ludacris (no offense to anyone).
Can any mind check a thousand things in an instant?

Tesla has billions of miles of real world data and continues to capture more. There is a long way to go; many, many obstacles.
The only constant is change.

 

[PandaBear]

Not if the fly disappears and hides. What your processor going to do then? No machine thinks. So many times a fly has to be searched for, unless you want to sit down and it lands on your nose again. They usually are sitting somewhere quietly waiting. Not in a million years will a machine be made that can think like a fly. There never will be motion control equal to millions of examples occurring in nature all the time. A pelican can see a fish, stop suddenly in mid air, fold body, dive, get the fish, come out and fly away. The processing speed to do all that? It really isn’t about just processor speed, thinking. Not sure we even know what thinking is.

There's motor control, physics between mass and acceleration, positioning device feedback loop speed (say you are using something like PID), if you can see and move faster than a fly then yes you can "catch" it faster than a fly can fly away.

Assuming you have a $50k robot with the right sensor (say some infrared or through-beam sensor detecting where it is within a confined space, you can hit it faster than 1) a human can (assuming human can response as fast as 20ms, a machine can see at least 1ms, and if your robot has good power, low mass, it will be faster than human arm) and 2) a fly can if you have the right thing (say a vacuum hose attached to a trap at the "hand").

In nature predators most predator hunts are successful
https://www.airforcemag.com/artificial-intelligence-easily-beats-human-fighter-pilot-in-darpa-trial/

https://www.c4isrnet.com/artificial...algorithm,agency's AI air combat competition.

 

[PimTac]

Autonomous driving cars do not exist.
The cost of development, exploration and test of any product is high. But the promise autonomous cars is incredible.
And the idea that drivers are better is ludacris (no offense to anyone).
Can any mind check a thousand things in an instant?

Tesla has billions of miles of real world data and continues to capture more. There is a long way to go; many, many obstacles.
The only constant is change.

“Can any mind check a thousand things in an instant?”


No but a human can make a critical decision. Like the scenario posted earlier, a plastic bag flies across the freeway. The computer detects an object and brakes. The human knows there is no harm and keeps going thus avoiding a accident happening behind them.

Over the years we will encounter scenarios like that or some that require decisive thinking. To avoid hitting another person for example forces you to hit a tree or another car.

 

[Job]

Behold the fly.

 

[Job]

“Can any mind check a thousand things in an instant?”


No but a human can make a critical decision. Like the scenario posted earlier, a plastic bag flies across the freeway. The computer detects an object and brakes. The human knows there is no harm and keeps going thus avoiding a accident happening behind them.

Over the years we will encounter scenarios like that or some that require decisive thinking. To avoid hitting another person for example forces you to hit a tree or another car.

Who says the brain isn’t checking a thousand things in an instant? When you look at something our eyes connected to the brain are checking things as fast as light hits the scene. When we touch, hear, or think it is beyond understanding. When we think of a memory how does that even work. Like houses we lived in as children. The image in the mind is just there. What is that image anyway does anyone know?