More information in this video about GM pushing for 95 RON (91 Octane) fuels... (At about 9 minutes in)
More info on GM pushing for High Octane Fuels
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Gas particulate filters soon to follow. It'll be interesting to see how they hold up in Europe.
btw.. I suspect this is what sparked the push for E15.
btw.. I suspect this is what sparked the push for E15.
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E15 is being pushed by the corn lobby to increase the use of biofuels. Octane is not the reason that is being pushed. It is called the blending wall - essentially there isn't much room for additional ethanol to be used as nearly everything is E10 now, unless the allowed ethanol content is increased - and just like that E15 is OK for use in cars built after 2001 to fit this agenda.
Beyond that, if GM wants to push premium fuels, there is nothing stopping them...
Beyond that, if GM wants to push premium fuels, there is nothing stopping them...
It starts at 7:22.
I think by the time this and that lobby gets done with the final bill the new gold mine will be corn. Get big fat checks to let the land lay fertile, and the government boys come out to show me how to blast stumps out of the ground to clear more land, so I can get fatter checks.
I think by the time this and that lobby gets done with the final bill the new gold mine will be corn. Get big fat checks to let the land lay fertile, and the government boys come out to show me how to blast stumps out of the ground to clear more land, so I can get fatter checks.
Originally Posted by BigD1
It starts at 7:22.
I think by the time this and that lobby gets done with the final bill the new gold mine will be corn. Get big fat checks to let the land lay fertile, and the government boys come out to show me how to blast stumps out of the ground to clear more land, so I can get fatter checks.
ANFO?
It starts at 7:22.
I think by the time this and that lobby gets done with the final bill the new gold mine will be corn. Get big fat checks to let the land lay fertile, and the government boys come out to show me how to blast stumps out of the ground to clear more land, so I can get fatter checks.
ANFO?
I watched the whole show, enjoyed it greatly.
95 RON could certainly increase efficiency, however, I have a hard time imagining it being cost neutral as the GM guy claims.
95 RON could certainly increase efficiency, however, I have a hard time imagining it being cost neutral as the GM guy claims.
Especially with how oil companies work.
Kestas
Staff member
I'm still not convinced GM has the best interest of the driving public, and that they are pushing this to meet CAFE standards and carbon emissions. I listened to the words he had to say, and I'm not convinced this move will make going from Point A to Point B any cheaper for the average driver.
CAFE standards have now taken on a life of its own and the auto manufacturers are forced to design cars to meet some artificial goal instead of making cars thrifty with respect to gasoline.
95 RON will help manufacturers meet CAFE, it won't necessarily make travel less costly for the average driver. Be careful how they spin this. Remember when premium fuel paid for itself with the extra efficiency they could build into engines? The recent trends in price disparity between premium and regular show me something rotten is going on.
CAFE standards have now taken on a life of its own and the auto manufacturers are forced to design cars to meet some artificial goal instead of making cars thrifty with respect to gasoline.
95 RON will help manufacturers meet CAFE, it won't necessarily make travel less costly for the average driver. Be careful how they spin this. Remember when premium fuel paid for itself with the extra efficiency they could build into engines? The recent trends in price disparity between premium and regular show me something rotten is going on.
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Originally Posted by Kestas
I'm still not convinced GM has the best interest of the driving public, and that they are pushing this to meet CAFE standards and carbon emissions. I listened to the words he had to say, and I'm not convinced this move will make going from Point A to Point B any cheaper for the average driver.
CAFE standards have now taken on a life of its own and the auto manufacturers are forced to design cars to meet some artificial goal instead of making cars thrifty with respect to gasoline.
95 RON will help manufacturers meet CAFE, it won't necessarily make travel less costly for the average driver. Be careful how they spin this. Remember when premium fuel paid for itself with the extra efficiency they could build into engines? The recent trends in price disparity between premium and regular show me something rotten is going on.
This is the whole kit and kabootle Emissions and CAFE standards and is not necessarily a bad thing up to the point of diminishing returns.The corporations aren't our friends but then neither are the people in government .
I'm still not convinced GM has the best interest of the driving public, and that they are pushing this to meet CAFE standards and carbon emissions. I listened to the words he had to say, and I'm not convinced this move will make going from Point A to Point B any cheaper for the average driver.
CAFE standards have now taken on a life of its own and the auto manufacturers are forced to design cars to meet some artificial goal instead of making cars thrifty with respect to gasoline.
95 RON will help manufacturers meet CAFE, it won't necessarily make travel less costly for the average driver. Be careful how they spin this. Remember when premium fuel paid for itself with the extra efficiency they could build into engines? The recent trends in price disparity between premium and regular show me something rotten is going on.
This is the whole kit and kabootle Emissions and CAFE standards and is not necessarily a bad thing up to the point of diminishing returns.The corporations aren't our friends but then neither are the people in government .
At 6:40, the GM Veep says "I think the time is right for downsized turbocharged engines in full-size pickup trucks." Now there's a newsflash; Ford has been there since 2011. GM introduces their 2.7L I4 turbo years after Ford introduces their 2.7L V6 turbo, and wants to claim superiority. Well, they're 3 years, 2 cylinders and 25 HP short.
They talked about 95 RON a bit, but never came clean that that is really just 91 octane when you apply the (R+M)/2 calculation for pump octane.
That new Malibu is hideous.
GM is in trouble.
The whole auto industry is in trouble.
The more they reengineer their cars to meet 2025 CAFE standards, the fewer the people that will want to buy them.
CAFE has to be abolished.
They talked about 95 RON a bit, but never came clean that that is really just 91 octane when you apply the (R+M)/2 calculation for pump octane.
That new Malibu is hideous.
GM is in trouble.
The whole auto industry is in trouble.
The more they reengineer their cars to meet 2025 CAFE standards, the fewer the people that will want to buy them.
CAFE has to be abolished.
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I think they should abolish CAFE as well and put a push on alternative technologies instead. Just demand that manufacturers come up with viable alternatives with excellent range and quick recharging times whether that is hydrogen, Electric or something new. I think we have hit the limits with I.C. gasoline based engines for the most part unless we want 15 speed transmissions and really boring CVT's
As for GM being in trouble, when they change their business model that they broke decades ago then they might get somewhere. Until then they will have short periods of recover and then disaster and this will keep repeating.
As for GM being in trouble, when they change their business model that they broke decades ago then they might get somewhere. Until then they will have short periods of recover and then disaster and this will keep repeating.
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Originally Posted by Kestas
I'm still not convinced GM has the best interest of the driving public, and that they are pushing this to meet CAFE standards and carbon emissions. I listened to the words he had to say, and I'm not convinced this move will make going from Point A to Point B
95 RON will help manufacturers meet CAFE, it won't necessarily make travel less costly for the average driver. Be careful how they spin this. Remember when premium fuel paid for itself with the extra efficiency they could build into engines? The recent trends in price disparity between premium and regular show me something rotten is going on.
The problem is that in many areas Premium fuel is considered "recreational " fuel and demands a buck a gallon more cost just because they can.
Premium fuel in volume only costs the manufacturer around 1-3% more to produce and in California it's not uncommon for Premium to only be 5-10 cents more per gallon at the pump.
I think the key is to make ALL fuel 88 or 89 octane minimum to start, vendors would alter their mix and the cost increase would be minimized since everyone would have to make and sell the same stuff.
Around here 88 octane is 5-10 cents per gallon cheaper, if the higher octane fuel demanded by the manufacturer is cheaper then it would be a market success.
If they just sell cars that need Premium without the will behind them to change the system you will get a bunch of unhappy customers, especially in the Midwest.
I'm still not convinced GM has the best interest of the driving public, and that they are pushing this to meet CAFE standards and carbon emissions. I listened to the words he had to say, and I'm not convinced this move will make going from Point A to Point B
95 RON will help manufacturers meet CAFE, it won't necessarily make travel less costly for the average driver. Be careful how they spin this. Remember when premium fuel paid for itself with the extra efficiency they could build into engines? The recent trends in price disparity between premium and regular show me something rotten is going on.
The problem is that in many areas Premium fuel is considered "recreational " fuel and demands a buck a gallon more cost just because they can.
Premium fuel in volume only costs the manufacturer around 1-3% more to produce and in California it's not uncommon for Premium to only be 5-10 cents more per gallon at the pump.
I think the key is to make ALL fuel 88 or 89 octane minimum to start, vendors would alter their mix and the cost increase would be minimized since everyone would have to make and sell the same stuff.
Around here 88 octane is 5-10 cents per gallon cheaper, if the higher octane fuel demanded by the manufacturer is cheaper then it would be a market success.
If they just sell cars that need Premium without the will behind them to change the system you will get a bunch of unhappy customers, especially in the Midwest.
I think that's why GM has been hinting over the past while that the government should raise minimum octane standards. That way, it's on them, not on GM for requiring premium. Incidentally, years ago, before our ethanol mandate, Husky and Mohawk stations would sell E10 89 octane at the same price as 87 E0. It was a market success.
Originally Posted by MNgopher
E15 is being pushed by the corn lobby to increase the use of biofuels. Octane is not the reason that is being pushed. It is called the blending wall - essentially there isn't much room for additional ethanol to be used as nearly everything is E10 now, unless the allowed ethanol content is increased - and just like that E15 is OK for use in cars built after 2001 to fit this agenda.
Beyond that, if GM wants to push premium fuels, there is nothing stopping them...
Not sure I agree with that. Depending on location, one can easily get a wide variety of blends right now..... E20, E30, E50, E85. Those alone make up any perceived "blending wall' that is reasoned regarding E10. You could be right that it is their reasoning, but it really doesn't stand with the facts. If the corn and ethanol folks really wanted to promote the use of ethanol, then lobby more heavily for blender pumps at retail locations that offer a wide choice or blend options.
Actually, the ceiling on ethanol in the U.S is roughly 13 billion gallons now. That has nothing to do with how much is blended where. It is a cap in production. It would be more logical that they would be promoting E15 so as to allow for higher production caps. But again, blender pumps would go much further to getting that done. With the 13 billion gallons of ethanol production currently, there is no way all the gasoline in the country could be blended to E10. Even if none of the other blends were available.
And while the ag lobby may be pushing for such things, in the end it is each state that decides what they are going to offer to the consumer. Many states do have E10 everywhere, but along side it the consumer could buy E0 if they wanted. I have it all in Iowa. E0, E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, E85 all over the place with E0 in both regular and premium available at a dozen locations in the 3 small towns that surround my rural home. And my state is corn lobby central. Agriculture is the big guerrilla on the block here and runs the state capitol. If they were really pushing for E15 like is assumed, there should be E15 on every corner in my area. Well, I only know of 1 location that has E15 at the pump, the Murphy's station at Walmart. There is more availability of E85 than E15 in my area.
E15 is being pushed by the corn lobby to increase the use of biofuels. Octane is not the reason that is being pushed. It is called the blending wall - essentially there isn't much room for additional ethanol to be used as nearly everything is E10 now, unless the allowed ethanol content is increased - and just like that E15 is OK for use in cars built after 2001 to fit this agenda.
Beyond that, if GM wants to push premium fuels, there is nothing stopping them...
Not sure I agree with that. Depending on location, one can easily get a wide variety of blends right now..... E20, E30, E50, E85. Those alone make up any perceived "blending wall' that is reasoned regarding E10. You could be right that it is their reasoning, but it really doesn't stand with the facts. If the corn and ethanol folks really wanted to promote the use of ethanol, then lobby more heavily for blender pumps at retail locations that offer a wide choice or blend options.
Actually, the ceiling on ethanol in the U.S is roughly 13 billion gallons now. That has nothing to do with how much is blended where. It is a cap in production. It would be more logical that they would be promoting E15 so as to allow for higher production caps. But again, blender pumps would go much further to getting that done. With the 13 billion gallons of ethanol production currently, there is no way all the gasoline in the country could be blended to E10. Even if none of the other blends were available.
And while the ag lobby may be pushing for such things, in the end it is each state that decides what they are going to offer to the consumer. Many states do have E10 everywhere, but along side it the consumer could buy E0 if they wanted. I have it all in Iowa. E0, E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, E85 all over the place with E0 in both regular and premium available at a dozen locations in the 3 small towns that surround my rural home. And my state is corn lobby central. Agriculture is the big guerrilla on the block here and runs the state capitol. If they were really pushing for E15 like is assumed, there should be E15 on every corner in my area. Well, I only know of 1 location that has E15 at the pump, the Murphy's station at Walmart. There is more availability of E85 than E15 in my area.
Kestas
Staff member
If premium costs only 1-3% more to produce, why do we presently have the large disparity in price between premium and regular? Premium is 27% more where I shop. It's not as though premium is a low volume specialty fuel. 40% of new cars sold in the US are built to use premium. More people would actually use premium - including myself - if it only cost 10 cents more at the pump. Again, something is rotten here.
The cost up here is even more than that. It can be about $0.50 USD per gallon more up here.
Its greed and marketing
Around here Premium is normally around a dollar a gallon more but the price for Premium varies A LOT from one station to the next, while regular varies by a cent or less area wide.
Cheapest gas around here is 88 octane, you can buy any percentage of ethanol you want including none and diesel has not dropped below $3 a gallon for close to a decade yet as regular gas prices have gone up I finally saw diesel under $3 a gallon for the first time in many years, what's stranger is Premium has not been increasing in price as regular gas gone up in price so the spread is narrowing.
Ask a fuel supplier why gas and diesel move in opposite directions and you will get a mouthful of nonsense about maintaining similar profits over lots and blending profiles. Which is just a good way of saying because we can.
In our area the minimum markup law is used to put independent stations out of business and our area is single sourced (all stations get fuel from the same vendor, excluding Kwik Trip and a single UP aligned station).
This means minimal competition.
Around here Premium is normally around a dollar a gallon more but the price for Premium varies A LOT from one station to the next, while regular varies by a cent or less area wide.
Cheapest gas around here is 88 octane, you can buy any percentage of ethanol you want including none and diesel has not dropped below $3 a gallon for close to a decade yet as regular gas prices have gone up I finally saw diesel under $3 a gallon for the first time in many years, what's stranger is Premium has not been increasing in price as regular gas gone up in price so the spread is narrowing.
Ask a fuel supplier why gas and diesel move in opposite directions and you will get a mouthful of nonsense about maintaining similar profits over lots and blending profiles. Which is just a good way of saying because we can.
In our area the minimum markup law is used to put independent stations out of business and our area is single sourced (all stations get fuel from the same vendor, excluding Kwik Trip and a single UP aligned station).
This means minimal competition.
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