More Heinlen "Predictions"...from 1959

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Hmmm, that was fast.

Will have to find more when I get home, or precis it.

Described why our civilisation (had) ultimately failed, due to lack of actul parenting, punishment, etc.

Final quote was
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And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior hoodlums which roamed thier streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure."
 
Heinlen wrote some great stuff in his prime, and I'm not saying he may have a point in this case, but he did have a bit of a bias.
 
Was an interesting "lecture", by an instructor in "History and Moral Ethics", prerequisite to get the job being an ex serviceman.

Was explaining the failure of western civilisation at the end of the 20th century, gangs in the streets and parks, innocents being mugged raped and killed...to the horror of the children learning, in an environment where corporal punishment was delivered as and when required, but was generally not necessary.

Used a puppy training analogy...

Puppy soils, you rub it's nose, growl, and spank (if you catch it in the act), the violence isn't out of anger, it's a delivery tool, utilising our oldest instinct, self preservation in the face of pain to instill the "norms" of the puppies world.

He posed an alternative training mechanism to the class.

"Reason" with the puppy, warn the puppy, scowl/growl at it, take away its liberty by occasionally locking it up in another room, or with other soiling puppies, and when it matures into an adult dog through arbitrary definition of adult, if it's still soiling, take it out the back and shoot it.

Then explained that this is late 20th century model, expecting "adults" to know that which isn't innate to humans, then death penalty for behaviour which has been more or less tolerated as they've learned and grown.

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I told you that 'juvenile delinquent' is a contradiction in terms. 'Delinquent' means 'failing in duty.' But duty is an adult virtue—indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be a 'juvenile delinquent.' But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents—people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fai
 
Good analogy. I recall reading that novel as a kid, but don't remember much of it today. I was a big fan of Heinlein and Asimov both. Asimov also wrote some interesting stuff that touched on social questions through the "what if" future scenarios he created. Asimov lacked Heinlein's level of human insight, but he wrote some good stuff as well.

-Spyder
 
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Changed jobs recently (same place, different job), and while the stresses are high, they are different enough that I can now read fiction during the non holiday time.

Catching back up with some old stuff, and starting with the things that grabbed me in my teens.

Stranger in a Strange Land I read some weeks ago, and posted on a little.
 
It's funny how a lot of the older literature examines topics we thought were dead and put to rest 50-100 years ago, using almost the same language used in discussing them today.

Whoever said that those who know nothing of history are bound to repeat its mistakes is quite correct...
 
Originally Posted By: sciphi
It's funny how a lot of the older literature examines topics we thought were dead and put to rest 50-100 years ago, using almost the same language used in discussing them today.

Whoever said that those who know nothing of history are bound to repeat its mistakes is quite correct...


I recently finished reading Propaganda by Edward Bernays. It was written in 1928 and was just as relevant today (other than the timely references) as it was then. The more things change....
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: sciphi
It's funny how a lot of the older literature examines topics we thought were dead and put to rest 50-100 years ago, using almost the same language used in discussing them today.

Whoever said that those who know nothing of history are bound to repeat its mistakes is quite correct...


I recently finished reading Propaganda by Edward Bernays. It was written in 1928 and was just as relevant today (other than the timely references) as it was then. The more things change....
Yah, no foolin' Thanks for a book to look for.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Changed jobs recently (same place, different job), and while the stresses are high, they are different enough that I can now read fiction during the non holiday time.

Catching back up with some old stuff, and starting with the things that grabbed me in my teens.

Stranger in a Strange Land I read some weeks ago, and posted on a little.


I think you mentioned that you recently read Niven's 'A World out of time'
You may also like Joe Haldeman's 'Forever War' Some would say it's a parody of 'Starship Troopers' written by someone who had actually been in combat!
 
Heinlein had the narrator comment in his last novel, published in 1988, that two signs of the decline of a society are poor manners and dirty public restrooms. If he was right, and I think he was, our civilization is doomed.

I enjoy his work and have for decades. It was his "Future History" story collection that really opened my mind to written SF; before, I hadn't liked much of what I read. Yes, in his later works he tended to sprawl and sometimes have his characters argue about stuff for pages -- but the stuff was usually interesting if not fascinating.

He was the Mark Twain of science fiction, and I think his work will be read for its narrative drive (he was incapable of being truly dull) and his philosophy for many years to come.
 
Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Changed jobs recently (same place, different job), and while the stresses are high, they are different enough that I can now read fiction during the non holiday time.

Catching back up with some old stuff, and starting with the things that grabbed me in my teens.

Stranger in a Strange Land I read some weeks ago, and posted on a little.


I think you mentioned that you recently read Niven's 'A World out of time'
You may also like Joe Haldeman's 'Forever War' Some would say it's a parody of 'Starship Troopers' written by someone who had actually been in combat!


We just had a Long weekend here in Canada, I guess I typed this post after a few Beers.
What I wanted to say, was something about the Starship Troopers MOVIE being a Parody of Heinlen's book (and quite good at that) But Haddeman's Forever war was more a 'Reflection' of Heinlen's story. and IMO well worth a read. Even Heinlen complimented Haldeman on his work, an honor Haldeman rated Higher than the Hugo he had received for the book!
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow


Used a puppy training analogy...

Puppy soils, you rub it's nose, growl, and spank (if you catch it in the act), the violence isn't out of anger, it's a delivery tool, utilising our oldest instinct, self preservation in the face of pain to instill the "norms" of the puppies world.

He posed an alternative training mechanism to the class.

"Reason" with the puppy, warn the puppy, scowl/growl at it, take away its liberty by occasionally locking it up in another room, or with other soiling puppies, and when it matures into an adult dog through arbitrary definition of adult, if it's still soiling, take it out the back and shoot it.




That has been proven to be wrong by knowledgeable dog trainers.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Nice posts.

Also consider George Orwell. Scary how he got so much right so long ago! [Animal Farm, and 1984]


Both good books. Animal Farm is a quick, easy read. I thought after reading it, it must have been inspired by the Bolshevik revolution and the creation of the USSR. 1984 could describe the extremes of either end of the political spectrum - fascism or communism (and even extreme tendencies of nations that don't rest on either political extreme).

His insight into how language itself can be manipulated by the powers that be, and used as a tool to control the masses, was an uncanny insight considering the time it was written and what followed later: politicians in fact corrupting phrases by using them to describe legislation that was actually opposite the accepted meaning of the phrase they adopted for it.

Similarly, with 'framing' they've discovered how to use word play to rob events of their true meaning or change the meaning in the kind of black into white way he described. The phrase 'collateral damage' is a good example of this, in that it takes the human element out of a human event and also absolves any responsibility by suggesting a certain inevitability to it that further down plays it.

"War on Terror" is another Orwellian type phrase; break it down into its linguistic components and the contradiction can be found: 'war' was, when used correctly and in the manner of its accepted definition, used to describe an armed conflict between two or more nation states; 'terror' has no national boundary, and a meaning of its own having nothing to do with nation states and which is also a relativistic one (one man's 'terrorist' is another man's 'freedom fighter,' etc).

As terror is a weapon almost as old as mankind, while 'war' is fought until one of the nations involved (or groups if its of the allied vs axis type) is defeated and declares its surrender, 'war' in its traditional use has concrete objectives, a clearly defined enemy, and equally an implicit end which can be realized when one party or the other finally capitulates and surrenders.

Terror being an abstract quantity whose very nature is fluid and lacks the black and white boundaries of the traditional parties engaged in 'war,' the clear ends to which 'war' is used to realize in its conventional use don't exist. As with the endless state of perpetual war Orwell described in 1984, so to it is with the "War on Terror" as the enemy, like the multi-headed hydra, will always exist and always evolve and shift with no clearly defined battleground and no implicit end that can be defined or realistically attained.

It has an Orwellian perfection as concept in that it more perfectly realizes what he alluded to by using the same kind of perversion of meaning he described to attain the perpetual state of war (and, more importantly, fear) he also described, but makes use in its definition a synergism that even Orwell couldn't quite conceive of.

As an aside, both are books I first read in school (Animal Farm in middle school, 1984 in high school) and 1984 is one that, every 10 years or so I revisit with another reading. Each time I've read it I've taken more out of it and found more newly created phenomena that has a very strong resonance with themes he described.

Both books are timeless and well describe some of the dangers and tendencies to excess that are present in any organized society regardless of the political system it lives under, and should be required reading (and comprehension of) for all kids prior to high school graduation.

-Spyder
 
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His insight into how language itself can be manipulated by the powers that be, and used as a tool to control the masses, was an uncanny insight considering the time it was written and what followed later: politicians in fact corrupting phrases by using them to describe legislation that was actually opposite the accepted meaning of the phrase they adopted for it.

This technique was mastered by Edward Bernays during WWI in selling the war to the people. This and more can be found in his book Propaganda. There are numerous vids on Youtube regarding Bernays and how powerful his techniques are.
Joseph Goebbels also used his techniques in WWII.

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extremes of either end of the political spectrum - fascism or communism

Mussolini was raised in a fervently socialist family and was the editor of the socialist magazine Avanti! before "becoming" fascist so as to expedite his rise to power.

Hitler increased taxes on the rich as well as greatly expanded the existing welfare state that was started under Otto von Bismark.

The Nazi's called themselves "National Socialist" because their movement was all about Germany and it's advances. This is different from "classical" socialism that is international or global in focus. Their end goals were otherwise nearly identical.

They are just different versions of the same thing.
 
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