More bailouts...

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Because we spend the 2nd most as a percentage of GNP (only the Marshall Islands spends more as a percentage of GNP on healthcare) on the planet.


..and..
Quote:
So getting this into one program is nothing more than a money grab. Folks want control over that 15%+ of our GNP.

So, the current money grabbers ..that are commanding 15% of our GDP ..will be corrupted even further? It will be even a more lucrative enterprise for the advancement of medical professionals .....like it appears to have done in Canada??

Right.

Now if you're saying that corrupt capitalism is favorable to corrupt socialized systems ..I'd say that depends on how you manage to benefit from corrupt capitalism

 

[StevieC]

I think what everyone is forgetting is that no one liked the word Communism but we have that now, they just call it Captialism and Corporate America / The Government are the ones in control and they let us think we have "FREEDOMS"... Sure they give us a bit, but how much do they take?

 

[javacontour]

It's not that they can't get the treatment. Anyone can seek treatment. They simply have to have a means to pay.

It's not the government's job to pay, that's all.

Healthcare is available to everyone, all 7 out of 7. The 6 out of 7 have an insurance policy to pay the costs, the 7th has to pay the bill himself, or do without.

So,just like in Canada 7 out of 7 Americans have the right to healthcare.

It's just that there is no right that the government provide the healthcare.

Even for those who get medicare/medicaid, that's an entitlement, not a right. The government could stop paying tomorrow and it wouldn't be a constitutional issue.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Because we spend the 2nd most as a percentage of GNP (only the Marshall Islands spends more as a percentage of GNP on healthcare) on the planet.


..and..
Quote:
So getting this into one program is nothing more than a money grab. Folks want control over that 15%+ of our GNP.

So, the current money grabbers ..that are commanding 15% of our GDP ..will be corrupted even further? It will be even a more lucrative enterprise for the advancement of medical professionals .....like it appears to have done in Canada??

Right.

Now if you're saying that corrupt capitalism is favorable to corrupt socialized systems ..I'd say that depends on how you manage to benefit from corrupt capitalism

I can choose if I wish to participate in corrupt capitalism or not.

In corrupt socialism, I have no choice.

Since corruption is present in every system, I prefer to have some choice if I participate, or even my level of participation.

I have no illusions of doing away with corruption. So I merely want to control what I can control, which is my participation.

 

[StevieC]

I just pray that you never become one of the 7's because then you will see what we were talking about. In Canada it's impossible to be a 7, unless you denounce your citizenship.

 

[CivicFan]

A single payer system has its benefits and I think the future of the US health care is to use a single payer system as well - pretty much like what H.R. 676 envisions. Right now we pay twice as much per capita in the US as the rest of the developed countries and we rank at the bottom of health indicators such as life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.

There are a number of reasons for this but the most profound for the low aggregate quality is the existence of the uninsured and under-insured people who are roughly the third of the US population (not counting the illegal immigrants who are uninsured because they are illegal).

The reason for costs has a few reasons:
- the uninsured do not receive preventative care and seek medical help only when it is very difficult and expensive to treat;
- the private insurance companies have 25% overhead costs in addition to the profit margins they seek;
- the administrative costs at the provider level who have to deal with fragmented payer field.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
You don't live here. WE DO.

Well I haven't stepped out in front of a moving bus or jumped off a tall bridge but I'm pretty sure that it will hurt.
And those Hitler and Stalin guys, never lived under them so maybe they did have the answers to everything....

Quote:
People are not FORCED to live in this country.

So if you don't like what the government is doing, get out? That's quite a precedent to set. Your government already prosecutes people for speaking their mind.

But I'm not just beating up on the Canadian system.

Here's an example from Australia:
Quote:
The immigration department said Moeller's 13-year-old son, Lukas, "did not meet the health requirement."

"A medical officer of the Commonwealth assessed that his son's existing medical condition was likely to result in a significant and ongoing cost to the Australian community," a departmental spokesman said in a statement issued Thursday by the Department of Immigration and Citizenship.

"This is not discrimination. A disability in itself is not grounds for failing the health requirement--it is a question of the cost implications to the community," the statement said.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20081031/australia-no-residency-for-boy-with-down-syndrome.htm
Now his application was eventually approved by the head of the department after 2 tries. No doubt the media coverage had no effect on that...

Once you start to cost the government money, they will find ways to cost cut. When the government run health plan denies your coverage, to whom do you take your case?

People always complain about private insurance companies making cost/benefit decisions about health care. When the government starts deciding what health care you will get buy determining how valuable you are to society (i.e. your ability to generate tax dollars), you should be very worried.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
It's not that they can't get the treatment. Anyone can seek treatment. They simply have to have a means to pay.


It's called 'price rationing'. 30% of your compatriots cannot afford to pay for H.C. so they do not seek H.C.

If you think 7 out of 7 in the US receive health care, try to get treatment when you are uninsured.

 

[StevieC]

What also scares me CivicFan is if you make a major claim for something like I had done when I was a kid (open heart-surgery) they can cancel your policy and then you can become black-listed as "High Risk" and then you can no longer get insurance...

 

[javacontour]

I never said 7 out of 7 get treatment.

Let's look at what StevieC said

Quote:

Because in our system 7 out of 7 get treated. Why should any Citizen of your country not be given the right to live in some cases because they can't get the required medical treatment they require?


There is NO RIGHT to funded medical care. The right is that no one is denied care due to race, religion, or gender, period.

If 1 out of 7 cannot afford healthcare, no rights have been violated.

There is no right to anyone else paying your way. It doesn't exist in the Constitution.

If the federal government stopped paying for Medicare and Medicaid, there would not be a violation of constitutional rights.

There are those who are trying to create a right that doesn't exist.

 

[javacontour]

BTW, I'm a cancer survivor. I've not been blacklisted or anything else. I've been covered for the past 15 years since I was diagnosed and treated.

Can it happen? I'm sure it does.

But then again, why should I expect anyone to take me on as a client, just because I asked them to?

Even I have no RIGHT to have someone pay for my healthcare.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
There is a simple arithmetic to the rising costs of health care, just as there was to the federal deficit in the 1990s. Health care costs are increasing at a faster rate than the revenue of any government in Canada, and the scramble by governments to fund health care means that other critical priorities are being underfunded. In Ontario, for example, because health care costs have increased by an average of 8% a year for the last 5 years, their share of the government spending pie has risen from 32% to 39%; if interest costs are omitted, 46% of all Ontario spending is devoted to health care. These increases have come at the expense of funding for other priorities such as education, social programs and the environment. As Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty explained, "there will come a time when the Ministry of Health is the only Ministry we can afford to have and we still won't be able to afford the Ministry of Health."

Quote:
The federal government has invested $65 billion in health care in the last 5 years, and its health spending is increasing at almost 7% a year, a rate of increase that exceeds its rate of revenue growth. The provinces want more federal money, and Quebec has specified the amount that it believes the provinces need. If the federal government were to agree with Quebec's proposal, the result would be a cumulative federal deficit of more than $24 billion in 5 years.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/171/6/603
I hope you guys are enjoying your health care bubble. A Canadian professor wrote that article by the way.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I think what everyone is forgetting is that no one liked the word Communism but we have that now, they just call it Captialism and Corporate America / The Government are the ones in control and they let us think we have "FREEDOMS"... Sure they give us a bit, but how much do they take?

And you are supporting government run health care???

 

[StevieC]

Try to get proper treatment through Medic-Aid/Medic-Care... It's nothing like your private insurance which you're lucky you haven't been black listed from. (Congratulations for beating Cancer, my mom's sister has also beat it twice with 7 years in between)

Anyways... Our Government treats all citizens whether they pay taxes or not and it can never be removed from us as yours can according to the "Constitution".

All I'm saying is that there is way to many uncertainties in your system that depends on your health, your ability to pay for insurance, previous claims, and your governments right to "Stop Paying".

In our system the only uncertainty is that you don't know how long you will wait for a non-critical surgery or specialists visit.

Every other visit to the doctor is pretty straight forward and very prompt. I can usually get in to see my doctor any day without an appointment. I also can go to a hospital with any critical problem needing urgent care and a bed is ready for me when I need it so I don't see how your system is better.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I think what everyone is forgetting is that no one liked the word Communism but we have that now, they just call it Captialism and Corporate America / The Government are the ones in control and they let us think we have "FREEDOMS"... Sure they give us a bit, but how much do they take?

And you are supporting government run health care???

Just 'cos I feel that way doesn't mean that IMO our health care system isn't a deal. I think we get a lot in return for the money we pay and I wouldn't have it any other way. Now taxes aside from the cost of health-care I feel can be much lower as could it in the US, but it isn't because I feel that the Government/Coporate America keeps us going to work in the morning because we only have enough to get by... Otherwise if people get "too comfortable" everyone would retire early and the economy would slow-down if not stop all together... Just think about how much the average North American makes and think about the average tax rate, then multiply that by the amount of people and you quickly see just how much money they take from us... Where does it all go? (I know where it goes), but the real question is does it really cost them that much? IMO I don't think so.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
You don't live here. WE DO.

Well I haven't stepped out in front of a moving bus or jumped off a tall bridge but I'm pretty sure that it will hurt.
And those Hitler and Stalin guys, never lived under them so maybe they did have the answers to everything....

You don't get it. Or rather, you don't want to. In reality, you don't have two sweet clues what goes on up here, but you'll spin the wheel of propaganda and Google your little heart out to come up with whatever media-spun tripe you want to prove your point.

The fact of the matter here is that YOU have ZERO first-hand experience with the Canadian health care system because...

YOU ARE NOT CANADIAN!

Quote:
Quote:
People are not FORCED to live in this country.

So if you don't like what the government is doing, get out? That's quite a precedent to set. Your government already prosecutes people for speaking their mind.


No, if you don't believe in the PRINCIPALS behind how Canada functions as a country, you are under no obligation to live here.

Nice spin though.


Quote:
But I'm not just beating up on the Canadian system.


Of course not, you've got a hate-hard-on for pretty much everything.

Quote:
Here's an example from Australia:
Quote:
The immigration department said Moeller's 13-year-old son, Lukas, "did not meet the health requirement."

"A medical officer of the Commonwealth assessed that his son's existing medical condition was likely to result in a significant and ongoing cost to the Australian community," a departmental spokesman said in a statement issued Thursday by the Department of Immigration and Citizenship.

"This is not discrimination. A disability in itself is not grounds for failing the health requirement--it is a question of the cost implications to the community," the statement said.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20081031/australia-no-residency-for-boy-with-down-syndrome.htm
Now his application was eventually approved by the head of the department after 2 tries. No doubt the media coverage had no effect on that...

Once you start to cost the government money, they will find ways to cost cut. When the government run health plan denies your coverage, to whom do you take your case?

People always complain about private insurance companies making cost/benefit decisions about health care. When the government starts deciding what health care you will get buy determining how valuable you are to society (i.e. your ability to generate tax dollars), you should be very worried.


I'm sorry, last time I checked, you were ripping on Canada, not Australia, and I was defending Canada, not Australia.

I don't know the Australian healthcare system, so I'm not going to talk down about it, nor pretend to know how it operates.

Unlike you, who seems more than willing to talk down about my healthcare system, of which you have no first hand experience.

 

[javacontour]

Life is uncertain, that's about the only thing that is certain.

If you think government (or even an insurance company) can really protect you from uncertainty then you are ripe for a disappointment.

There is more uncertainty that what you admit in your system. Such as will the government really be able to afford care in the future.

In a crisis, any system will not have sufficient resources to treat all patients and will make decisions, (triage) and take the one most likely to survive or in most urgent need of care. Those that can wait, or those that are hopeless will be deferred or never treated.

There is far more uncertainty than you think.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
There is a simple arithmetic to the rising costs of health care, just as there was to the federal deficit in the 1990s. Health care costs are increasing at a faster rate than the revenue of any government in Canada, and the scramble by governments to fund health care means that other critical priorities are being underfunded. In Ontario, for example, because health care costs have increased by an average of 8% a year for the last 5 years, their share of the government spending pie has risen from 32% to 39%; if interest costs are omitted, 46% of all Ontario spending is devoted to health care. These increases have come at the expense of funding for other priorities such as education, social programs and the environment. As Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty explained, "there will come a time when the Ministry of Health is the only Ministry we can afford to have and we still won't be able to afford the Ministry of Health."

Quote:
The federal government has invested $65 billion in health care in the last 5 years, and its health spending is increasing at almost 7% a year, a rate of increase that exceeds its rate of revenue growth. The provinces want more federal money, and Quebec has specified the amount that it believes the provinces need. If the federal government were to agree with Quebec's proposal, the result would be a cumulative federal deficit of more than $24 billion in 5 years.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/171/6/603
I hope you guys are enjoying your health care bubble. A Canadian professor wrote that article by the way.


Keep that wheel of propaganda spinning.

You master of Google you.

A professor, REALLY?

You know what? My father is a professor. His colleagues of course, are also professors. And I have a LOT of exposure to.... professors!

When somebody hatches a theory and writes their OPINION on it, then that is their OPINION. Very common practise by the way.

It doesn't mean he's correct.

And there may be a host of his colleagues who do NOT agree with him!

Because this is what these people do!

They teach, hatch theories, write books about them and then argue with each other.

At the end of it all, you might have a somewhat accurate answer. Or you might not. But it doesn't mean that simply because somebody using Google stumbled across some article written by a professor, that the given theory is correct. It's simply his opinion and theory.

 

[javacontour]

Google or not, is it true? Are health care costs in Canada rising faster than the rate of inflation?

Because that is much of the problem here. Healthcare is rising faster than inflation. So if any group, government or insurance companies or even private citizens are paying the bill, this fact is still an issue.

Frankly, I think insurance and/or government coverage helps drive up the costs of medicine. It's not the only factor, but to deny that it's a factor misses a reality.

If folks don't perceive they are paying for something, or perceive that it is free, they will use more of that commodity. If demand rises, what does that do to price? It drives it up.

Now technology is also a driver, to be fair not all increases are due to the "freeness" of health care.

But making health care "free" doesn't address the cost issue, it makes it worse.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Life is uncertain, that's about the only thing that is certain.

If you think government (or even an insurance company) can really protect you from uncertainty then you are ripe for a disappointment.

There is more uncertainty that what you admit in your system. Such as will the government really be able to afford care in the future.

In a crisis, any system will not have sufficient resources to treat all patients and will make decisions, (triage) and take the one most likely to survive or in most urgent need of care. Those that can wait, or those that are hopeless will be deferred or never treated.

There is far more uncertainty than you think.


Ah... But you see... I'm not paying my taxes to a company that is not accountable to anyone and can just cancel my health-care because they feel like it or because I'm High-Risk like your system can.

I pay to my Government which is in effect a big pot with the whole countries money put together and it is written in our laws that it can't be canceled. So I will take 33 Million Canadians pockets to pay for my needed health care versus 1 greedy private insurance company trying to make a buck by denying your health claim if they feel like it or have a bad year.

I will also pay for someone else in that group for the surgery they need.

Also I had open-heart surgery when I was a kid. Lets say the actual cost of that surgery was $20,000. I will pay way more than that in taxes over my life anyways... So how will the money not be available in future? (I'm talking actual costs, not what your private hospital would charge you for the surgery because its a profit system).

Sorry bud, I still can't see how your system is better... I'm trying to though...