Mobil 1 15W-50 1957 Ford 292 Y-Block 3,100 miles OCI

[Frankie]

Engine was rebuilt 6,100 miles ago, and broken in on 2 fills of Delo 15W-40. This is the second fill of Mobil 1 15W-50 (8 months @ 3,100 miles). Filter was a Napa Gold 1515. This is a 1950's OHV design with shaft mounted rockers using brass bushings on a chromed shaft,solid lifters. Pistons are full floating. Bearings are Clevite 77. Engine used about 1/2 quart of oil during the OCI. Guess I am hoping the Iron/lead/copper is indeed still just break in related. Any experience with the old stuff out there?

[ March 04, 2005, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

WOW an old "Y" block!!!! We are sure that the cam bearings were installed properly and not being starved for oil? I would drop down to a dino oil either a good 10W30 or 10W40 for the time being. It does not make sense to use a synthetic at point. Check your oil presure etc...... It could be normal wear in but the high copper,lead,tin bother me a bit. I am thinking cam bearings but I am guessing! I would drive it a bit more so we get another UOA as soon as possable. The "Y" block has a reputation for durability.

 

[Frankie]

Cam bearings are installed properly, and plenty of oil is getting to both banks of rockers (only one passage through the center cam bearing on these- so you are right in asking.) I guess I'm using the synthetic if for no other reason that I have so much time and effort into the rebuild, I want to give it the best. The engine has a Clay Smith cam, dual exhaust, and a 500 cfm Edelbrock. It is installed in a '56 F-100 with 3:73 gears, so at 65 mph, it's wound up fairly tight. The truck also has a camper on it too, so on a hot day pulling passes in the Sierras (which is routine), I thought the Mobil 1 couldn't hurt.

 

[BlazerLT]

This oil is too thick for that car.

 

[wizzells]

if youre gonna go ahead and say its too thick at least give a reason

 

[Bror Jace]

Frankie, Dad has a '55 with the 292 Y Block. I think he has non-detergent oil in his right now. It's due for an oil change this spring ... probably use some of the Amalie SB straight 40 we have a stash of.

I'm wondering if the bearing material(s) are modern enough to handle modern detergent oils. It could be that the additive package in the Mobil 1 15W-50 is slowly dissolving the bearing material and causing the lead and copper to spike.

I'm not sure why the iron would be elevated as well, though.

It may just be the age of these motors and the lack-of-assembly-precision because of their vintage.

--- Bror Jace

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

It's quite interesting to see UOA's from engines from yesteryear on here!

M1 15w-50 is fine, probably Delo 400 would be just as adequate as well. Given the looser tolerances of engines from the older era, a thicker oil would be preferred over the thinner stuff. I don't the the thickness matters as much as how cold those cold-starts truly are.

Ahhh, no catylitic converters, no EGR's, no CAFE, no drunk driving laws (remember the days when you can have a bimbo blonde in one arm and a can of Schlitz in the other while doing 80MPH without a seat belt??), no FM radio, no WalMarts....those were the days

.

 

[Chris142]

Wern't straight weights the recomended oils back in these days?

Even though it is a freshly rebuilt engine I wonder if it would do better on straight SAE-20 or 30?

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

---

Frankie:
.... The bearings are new Clevite 77's which is a modern design, so I doubt that they are dissolving. The rings are cast iron and there is a notoriously barely adequate oil supply to the upper end in these engines, both of which could account for some iron. Do you guys really think the numbers are that high? Truth be told, I was expecting them to be even higher given the design vintage and low mileage on the rebuild. ....

---

My impression is that your numbers are spot on. You're getting some break-in and there was probably some hard residue in the oil passages and so on the Mobil 1 is dissolving.

Given the propensity of this engine for oil supply problems to the top end, I'd probably go with a 10W-30 in the summer and a 5W-30 in the winter. The synthetic base stock will protect the engine better than an old SAE 40 mineral oil

That's got a good-sized oil filter on it, as they all used to, so if you use a premium filter like the Mobil 1 M1-301 or the Purolator PL30001
PureOne, you'll find it lasts a lot longer.


.

 

[Frankie]

Mickey-
I was thinking the same thing regarding residue left behind from the last incarnation of the motor. The machine shop bath I saw that block go in was pretty funky. I cleaned the block as good as I could before assembly, but wouldn't suprised if some stuff was left behind. My climate is mild- Oakland, California where the lows are rarely colder than 40 F. I have a Baldwin B2 oil filter on it now that I had in the garage- it should do as well as the Napa Gold. Thanks for your reply

 

[fuel tanker man]

Layman's musing:

The zinc and phos are off by more than I would think for that short an OCI. It would look like the engine has been "working" on the ZDDP levels.

Somebody tell if that makes any sense...

That particular oil should have well over 1K ppm of both zinc and phosphorous.

Here is that same oil in some other UOA's:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001679#000000

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001549#000000

http://www.darksci.net/~chunky/virgin_sample.png

And here is a UOA where the wear metals were high, and the zinc and phos were being depleted. Mobil 1 15W50 again:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000883#000000

For what it's worth.

I might be inclined to go to a sturdy 10W30 such as Havoline's or even Pennzoil and see if the engine won't like that a bit better.

Dan

 

[Frankie]

Bror-

The bearings are new Clevite 77's which is a modern design, so I doubt that they are dissolving. The rings are cast iron and there is a notoriously barely adequate oil supply to the upper end in these engines, both of which could account for some iron. Do you guys really think the numbers are that high? Truth be told, I was expecting them to be even higher given the design vintage and low mileage on the rebuild. I have 15W-50 M1 in there again and will run it this spring/summer/fall until about November when I think I'll go to the 5W-40.

 

[Bror Jace]

You might be right about the recent rebuild being responsible for the 41 iron, 24 lead and 20 copper. But after 2 oil changes already, I

Maybe the iron in these older blocks was softer than today's iron? I see this has 0 nickel so can I assume this is a low (or no) nickel block?

I'd stick with something around a 30 or 40 weight and go with the heaviest anti-wear package (including moly) you can find. Mobil 1 is a good choice ... as would be Schaeffer and the newest Delo400 in 15W-40 which has that little yellow flag on the front saying "New low wear formula."

Do you use a lead replacement additive? Any sort of upper cylinder lube?

I'd be tempted to use at least a top-oil of some sort.

I'd switch to something less expensive, do 2 changes with about 2,000 miles on each ... then run a full interval before you retest. That should get rid of any break-in contamination.

--- Bror Jace

 

[fuel tanker man]

I think it's scraping... as I mentioned above, the ZDDP is being used up faster than it seems to be in other UOA's (links posted).

Look at the Pennzoil 10W30 UOA recently posted here. If Pennzoil dino can beat Mobil 1 0W30 in that other guy's engine, then your engine may respond nicely as well.

Dan

 

[Geoff]

I'd stick with the M1 15w-50 as it is probably closest to the original spec oil and it strikes me as the right oil for your engine/climate/use. Don't condemn it until you see another analysis or two. That's a great oil.

Also, the chemical cleaning has got to leave some reaidues in a nearly 50 year old engine. Remember, it burned leaded fuel for most of its life.

 

[Frankie]

Not sure what you mean by "scaping". I assmbled the engine, and bearing clearances are all within spec,, and there is no noise. Oil pressure hot is 60 psi over the raod, and 20-25 at 550 rpm idle.

The pistons on these motors have a pretty full skirt, and I used cast rings- is that what you mean? I do see the zinc and phosphorous concentations are lower, but then again two of the analyses you cite are for motorcycles, and the car looks pretty close to mine- except for the lead I guess.

Well the M1 is in there now and I think it will stay there until at least November. I could take another sample then and wait for the results to come back before I buy oil. Geez- maybe I should have just skipped the whole deal. Oh well at least there are no particulates or coolant in the oil!

 

[fuel tanker man]

By "scraping" I just mean that there must be some metal to metal contact, where the hydrodynamic film is breaking down--that's why the zinc and phosphorous are being depleted.

Motorcycles are normally much, much harder on motor oils than cars are, so I figured the UOA's were relevant to this discussion.

The 60 psi of oil pressure may mean that you're not moving the oil fast enough. I recently read on an oil website (I go to so many I can't remember which one)

that too much oil pressure could be an indication of too much viscosity.

But as I mentioned, this is merely a layman's interpretation--we await expert comments from someone here.

Things will almost certainly settle in. I don't know why (for sure) but my instincts keep telling me... dino... dino... dino... Maybe it's the age of the engine. Maybe it's this "instilled" idea that dino is best for break-in (I realize you did that, but perhaps just not long enough in this case).

If all you had was high wear metals, we could surmise that the Mobil 1 was just "breaking loose" sludge or film (which contained these wear metals) from the initial break-in. But with the lower zinc and phosphorous I'm just thinking it's possible that there is still some breaching of the hydrodynamic film going on there.

I could be totally wrong here, so don't put a lot of stock in what I'm saying. I would be most interested in the follow up UOA.

Have you considered going back to the Delo? GOBS of zinc and phosphorous in that one.

Or even good old 10W30 Pennzoil might be just the ticket here. A lower oil pressure, somewhere in the 40 to 45 psi range may mean more flow.

Dan

[ March 08, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: fuel tanker man ]

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

somewhere in the 40 to 45 psi range may mean more flow.

---

same flow ..less hp to pump it.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Gary, true...

I installed a high volume oil pump in an old 302 Ford a few years ago. Worked okay. But I used the stock shaft.

I always figger'd that oil pressure was like horsepower--you know--the more the better.

So I put in some 20W50 (Castrol or Kendall--my memory fails me) and like an idiot a 15 ounce container of STP and I promptly pretzeled the oil pump shaft.

Dan

 

[wtd]

This post got me thinking about doing an oil analysis on the 396 big block in my 70 Monte Carlo. It was rebuilt about 12,000 miles ago so it should be broke in. The engine is pretty much stock. I'm running Havoline 10W-40 in it now. I tried running a 10W-30 in it but it was too thin for this engine. Oil pressure was running lower than I was comfortable with.

Wayne