Microgreen filter, 3,000 mile dipstick

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Let's turn this around. I'm not a lawyer (and I don't think you are either), but let's say you are. Also let's say you wished to challenge microGreen's claims as made on their website. What specific demonstrable claim would you challenge?


Id go about challenging the same way Id challenge any claim - testing the claim against a control.

Do you think any of the fleet managers tested its claimed? Or were they all bribed?

But what claim specifically?

And as far as fleet managers go, I have no clue.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Its simple. You just look at the setup inside the MicroGreens, and, with an engineering background or not, you can make reasonable deductions based on 1st principles that the MicroGreen oil filter should work. Its true I'd like to put the teflon disc in a filter rig and try out their claim it traps 2 microns and up sized particles. If you don't believe the teflon disc really captures those small particles, then you don't believe microgreen oil filters work, just that simple.
kschachn, is there something about the filter construction you don't like or believe will work?

The fleet managers were willing to try it, based on what they saw inside the filter.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Its simple. You just look at the setup inside the MicroGreens, and, with an engineering background or not, you can make reasonable deductions based on 1st principles that the MicroGreen oil filter should work. Its true I'd like to put the teflon disc in a filter rig and try out their claim it traps 2 microns and up sized particles. If you don't believe the teflon disc really captures those small particles, then you don't believe microgreen oil filters work, just that simple.
kschachn, is there something about the filter construction you don't like or believe will work?

That is silly. In past jobs I have specified the use of commercial products for industrial processes. It has included dispersants and surfactants, polymers and reagents. If ever I specified one product over another based on the paucity of evidence illustrated by microGreen I would have lost my job. Such decisions are made on test data, not testimonials and vague claims.

 

[UncleDave]

Did you read the fleet material already posted here about why they switched?

Or do you simply disregard that data because of some other reason?

The claim I would challenge is under the " Use" tab on their website.
Either the filter would pass a workable UOA with this regimen or not.



UD

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Did you read the fleet material already posted here about why they switched?

Or do you simply disregard that data because of some other reason?

The claim I would challenge is under the " Use" tab on their website.
Either the filter would pass a workable UOA with this regimen or not.

The "fleet material" once posted here is no longer claimed on their website, is it? I mean the ones that referenced specific city contracts. If they are then I missed seeing it on their site.

And you mean the claim that it keeps oil "cleaner" for "up to" 30,000 miles?

 

[UncleDave]

Why publish a client list? I wouldnt.

Why do you think the fleet manager put it on Ramble Jams car?

UD

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Why publish a client list? I wouldnt.

Why do you think the fleet manager put it on Ramble Jams car?

Lol, then what are we talking about? It is another vague claim with no supporting evidence.

And I told you I have no clue as to the motivation of any one person. I do know however, that people are motivated by many things - not all of which are fully substantiated technical documentation.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
kschachn, is there something about the filter construction you don't like or believe will work?

Such decisions are made on test data, not testimonials and vague claims.

You haven't answered the question. What about parallel filtration and/or the microgreen's design do you not like?

Some fleet managers have decided to try it to save money or satisfy a mandate to conserve resources. Its a try and see attitude the adopters have.

googling it gets one famous case: City of Oxnard, Calif., Extends Oil Drain Intervals with New Green Product
OXNARD, CA - After testing a new eco-friendly oil filter product for a year, the City of Oxnard will extend its fleet vehicle oil drain intervals, producing an estimated $145,000 in oil and labor savings and an annual reduction of 24,000 quarts of oil.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
You haven't answered the question. What about parallel filtration and/or the microgreen's design do you not like?

Some fleet managers have decided to try it to save money or satisfy a mandate to conserve resources. Its a try and see attitude the adopters have.

googling it gets one famous case: City of Oxnard, Calif., Extends Oil Drain Intervals with New Green Product
OXNARD, CA - After testing a new eco-friendly oil filter product for a year, the City of Oxnard will extend its fleet vehicle oil drain intervals, producing an estimated $145,000 in oil and labor savings and an annual reduction of 24,000 quarts of oil.

Right, sorry I didn't answer. My answer is that there is nothing I don't like about it. It may work as advertised but it may not. We are back to where we started numerous posts ago when I said that there is no evidence either way.

BTW you haven't answered my question either. I asked on what basis you state:

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Fram Ultra is 80% efficient at 5 microns which is almost as good as microgreen. Something to consider. Microgreen gets out more 1 to 4 micron particles one would assume.


I wonder if that City of Oxnard continued the use of microGreen filters past one year and what the results were of their testing? Back when we had this discussion before I did try and contact the person cited in that report, apparently he left Oxnard and I couldn't determine who was his equivalent. We really don't even know if Oxnard went through with the test at all.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Why publish a client list? I wouldnt.

Why do you think the fleet manager put it on Ramble Jams car?

Lol, then what are we talking about? It is another vague claim with no supporting evidence.

And I told you I have no clue as to the motivation of any one person. I do know however, that people are motivated by many things - not all of which are fully substantiated technical documentation.


Not a claim, a posted fact by Ramble Jam.

His last car came with an MG on it from a fleet auction.

Why do you think the manager MAY have used it.

UD

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Not a claim, a posted fact by Ramble Jam.

His last car came with an MG on it from a fleet auction.

Why do you think the manager MAY have used it.

A fact posted with no reference to any other filter or oil under the same conditions and use. Without that another filter or oil could have performed just as well. And you know this just the same as I do.

The manager saw a presentation, believed it, and went with it. That is the answer of course. Does that prove it was the correct choice?

 

[UncleDave]

It proves another fleet manager chose to use it.

Your stance is he didn't (nor any others) do his homework,


My stance is that he did, and these fleet managers probably know better than you or I because they regularly test - its part of their job.


I dont think well come together on this, but that's ok. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

UD

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

It proves another fleet manager chose to use it.

Your stance is he didn't (nor any others) do his homework,

My stance is that he did, and these fleet managers probably know better than you or I because they regularly test - its part of their job.

I dont think well come together on this, but that's ok. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Where did I say he didn't do his homework? I did say that such managers are influenced by things other than verified technical data.

And yeah we can. Thanks.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: UncleDave

It proves another fleet manager chose to use it.

Your stance is he didn't (nor any others) do his homework,

My stance is that he did, and these fleet managers probably know better than you or I because they regularly test - its part of their job.

I dont think well come together on this, but that's ok. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Where did I say he didn't do his homework? I did say that such managers are influenced by things other than verified technical data.

And yeah we can. Thanks.


You said "The manager saw a presentation, believed it, and went with it."


That insinuates he did no testing. Im not trying to put words in your mouth.


UD

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
You said "The manager saw a presentation, believed it, and went with it."

That insinuates he did no testing. Im not trying to put words in your mouth.


Ahh OK I see. I guess you're right then.

 

[FlyingTexan]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
The amount of unsubstantiated and almost irrational dedication to the nonexistent claims on that website is almost amusing. In regards to the 30,000 mile interval for filter change, this is what they say:

Quote:
The results indicate that not only can the microGreen filter effectively clean the oil; it maintains that cleanliness level to 30,000 miles. One car using the microGreen filter traveled over 72,000 miles without an oil change and demonstrated excellent results throughout.

Quote:
Our high performance filters enable you to drive up to 30,000 miles without needing to change the oil.

It's the usual "up to" along with a vague "maintains that cleanliness level". This means nothing, and if you can't see that it doesn't then I really don't know what else to tell you. Such claims could be made by any other oil filter company, correct? The reason no one has sued microGreen is because there is no specific claim anywhere that can be litigated. If you don't claim something specific then you mitigate the chance of a lawsuit. If they claimed specific filtration efficiencies then those can be tested - but since they do not then it is hard to argue against.

And "fleet guys". Those fleet guys signing contracts with microGreen ought to be terminated for entering into agreements for which there is no substantiation. "Our high performance filters enable you to drive up to 30,000 miles without needing to change the oil"... you would sign a contract based on that? I wouldn't.

If there aren't blown engines then that proves microGreen filters do not harm the engine. But likewise there is no proof they are any better than any other filter. By the way, there aren't any UOAs that show the filters work either. The one person on here whom you used to cite has admitted he has never run another filter to provide a control for the long TBN retention claim.
They don't claim you can go 30,000miles on a filter they say to change the filter every 10k and the oil every 30k.

 

[FlyingTexan]

Don't see the real reason for debate here I just wanted to post my findings that at 3,000miles the oil still looks new. Whether you want individual testing, go for it, I like real world results so considering how I've driven this truck I'm impressed. Granted it could be new engine technology but no vehicle I've owned before looked this clean after 3k miles.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: FlyingTexan
They don't claim you can go 30,000miles on a filter they say to change the filter every 10k and the oil every 30k.

Yes correct. I misspoke in one part of that response.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: FlyingTexan
Don't see the real reason for debate here I just wanted to post my findings that at 3,000miles the oil still looks new. Whether you want individual testing, go for it, I like real world results so considering how I've driven this truck I'm impressed. Granted it could be new engine technology but no vehicle I've owned before looked this clean after 3k miles.


This filter is surrounded by controversy on BITOG.

Discussions around it are pretty lively.

UD

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Fram Ultra is 80% efficient at 5 microns which is almost as good as microgreen. Something to consider. Microgreen gets out more 1 to 4 micron particles one would assume.


It would be interesting to do the same 30K mile run on the oil (same care, same oil brand & viscosity) with changing an Ultra every 10K miles (or even every 15K miles) with UOAs at the the same mileage intervals conducted with the Microgreen setup to see the differences.