Mazda RX8 Rotary - Completely Different Beast

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Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
...
Mobil advise against using any of their synthetic lubricants in the RX7 or RX8. They recommend a semi-synthetic or mineral lubricant of 10W-40, 15W-40 or 20W-50 viscosity

Knockers of the Wankel engine should do some homework - there are many happy users. I was but one



Mobil, on their old (circa-late 90s, early 2000s) US website, said use of Mobil1 15W-50 was fine in the RX-7 while Mazda was strongly against use of any synthetics at that point. Interestingly, I believe the factory fill now is probably Motorcraft 5W-20 --an advertised synthetic blend.

Cheers
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It's more likely Total mineral oil, as the Japanese factory is building the car, not North American dealers....
 
"Um, you have no idea what you are talking about. The reason they do not use rotaries is that Mazda has the Wankel design, and to my knowledge, no one else could even copy it up to a certain point. I'm assuming the patent has expired. But even if they can use the Wankel style, no one has done any R&D into rotaries so why would they go through the expense now? Even Mazda is too busy pumping out 3s, CX's, and the new gorgeous 6, to bother with the low volume car marketed to a very niche market segment. They can't even get the darn Mazda2, the darling of Europe, to the US except as a car Ford stole from them (ala the Fiesta!)"


Yes, i do know what I am talking about. Mazda owns [censored]. ford owns the rotary motor. Do you think there is a reason FORD, who has SAAB, LINCOLN, LANDROVER, ECT . . . dose not use the rotary, its because it is a bad motor.

And to what you said about the other car makers not being able to R+D. THEY DONT WANT TO because they see, and know how bad of a motor it is. if there was any upside to useing it, THEY WOULD.

Yes the small 1.3L put out a nice 240 HP, but it only puts out around 130 of TQ. Again, not so bad for a little 1.3, but now put it in a car. what you have now is one slow [censored] car.


you pay for gas like a v10 dodge viper owner, you get the speed of a honda civic si, and to boot your motor is a [censored] to work on, and pricy for maintance. not to mention the great unreliablity of these motors.

Unlike YOU, I have had a Rx8 for over a year. It was in the shop for more then 5 weeks, in that year.

You cant even start the car cold, then turn it off because it will flood the motor!!!


The rotary motor is cool, but it is a bad design. Thats why no other car maker, including FORD(who owns mazda) will NEVER use a rotary.
 
Originally Posted By: rg200amp


"Um, you have no idea what you are talking about. The reason they do not use rotaries is that Mazda has the Wankel design, and to my knowledge, no one else could even copy it up to a certain point. I'm assuming the patent has expired. But even if they can use the Wankel style, no one has done any R&D into rotaries so why would they go through the expense now? Even Mazda is too busy pumping out 3s, CX's, and the new gorgeous 6, to bother with the low volume car marketed to a very niche market segment. They can't even get the darn Mazda2, the darling of Europe, to the US except as a car Ford stole from them (ala the Fiesta!)"


Yes, i do know what I am talking about. Mazda owns [censored]. ford owns the rotary motor. Do you think there is a reason FORD, who has SAAB, LINCOLN, LANDROVER, ECT . . . dose not use the rotary, its because it is a bad motor.

And to what you said about the other car makers not being able to R+D. THEY DONT WANT TO because they see, and know how bad of a motor it is. if there was any upside to useing it, THEY WOULD.

Yes the small 1.3L put out a nice 240 HP, but it only puts out around 130 of TQ. Again, not so bad for a little 1.3, but now put it in a car. what you have now is one slow [censored] car.


you pay for gas like a v10 dodge viper owner, you get the speed of a honda civic si, and to boot your motor is a [censored] to work on, and pricy for maintance. not to mention the great unreliablity of these motors.

Unlike YOU, I have had a Rx8 for over a year. It was in the shop for more then 5 weeks, in that year.

You cant even start the car cold, then turn it off because it will flood the motor!!!


The rotary motor is cool, but it is a bad design. Thats why no other car maker, including FORD(who owns mazda) will NEVER use a rotary.


You are totally correct. The rotary engine has many faults that have never been solved. Chief are oil consumption and fuel economy. There are so many conventional internal combustion engines that work so much better. It wouldn't surprise me that Mazda will discontinue the rotary in the US altogether, though I have heard there is a next gen RX8 coming anyway.
 
Originally Posted By: BGK
Originally Posted By: rg200amp


"Um, you have no idea what you are talking about. The reason they do not use rotaries is that Mazda has the Wankel design, and to my knowledge, no one else could even copy it up to a certain point. I'm assuming the patent has expired. But even if they can use the Wankel style, no one has done any R&D into rotaries so why would they go through the expense now? Even Mazda is too busy pumping out 3s, CX's, and the new gorgeous 6, to bother with the low volume car marketed to a very niche market segment. They can't even get the darn Mazda2, the darling of Europe, to the US except as a car Ford stole from them (ala the Fiesta!)"


Yes, i do know what I am talking about. Mazda owns [censored]. ford owns the rotary motor. Do you think there is a reason FORD, who has SAAB, LINCOLN, LANDROVER, ECT . . . dose not use the rotary, its because it is a bad motor.

And to what you said about the other car makers not being able to R+D. THEY DONT WANT TO because they see, and know how bad of a motor it is. if there was any upside to useing it, THEY WOULD.

Yes the small 1.3L put out a nice 240 HP, but it only puts out around 130 of TQ. Again, not so bad for a little 1.3, but now put it in a car. what you have now is one slow [censored] car.


you pay for gas like a v10 dodge viper owner, you get the speed of a honda civic si, and to boot your motor is a [censored] to work on, and pricy for maintance. not to mention the great unreliablity of these motors.

Unlike YOU, I have had a Rx8 for over a year. It was in the shop for more then 5 weeks, in that year.

You cant even start the car cold, then turn it off because it will flood the motor!!!


The rotary motor is cool, but it is a bad design. Thats why no other car maker, including FORD(who owns mazda) will NEVER use a rotary.


You are totally correct. The rotary engine has many faults that have never been solved. Chief are oil consumption and fuel economy. There are so many conventional internal combustion engines that work so much better. It wouldn't surprise me that Mazda will discontinue the rotary in the US altogether, though I have heard there is a next gen RX8 coming anyway.



It will be discontinued for Fedral emmissions laws sooner or later. I see mazda droping it way before that though.
 
I would think that the rotary ..coupled with a really wide ranged CVT would make a dandy setup. You should be able to move a pretty sizable chassis with that rpm capability at lower speeds ..and trim the engine speed to some sensible sweet spot for reasonable fuel consumption with extended performance capabilities.
 
The rotary is not a very good engine based upon results Suzuki tried the design in a motorcycle and there was an outboard engine made with one both flopped. Because it won Le mans doesn't make is a good engine at other than Le mans for that year.
 
Originally Posted By: Steve S
The rotary is not a very good engine based upon results Suzuki tried the design in a motorcycle and there was an outboard engine made with one both flopped. Because it won Le mans doesn't make is a good engine at other than Le mans for that year.


Oh, nice logic. The Rotary is one very reliable design, and most people who staunchly say not are always ones who've never owned one. It's a different beast, thats obvious, but different doesnt have to equate to unreliable.

Small aircraft aviators prefer rotary engines over piston poppers for a very simple reason: what happens to a piston engine when it throws a rod mid air? Rotaries cannot suffer any such issue and should there be a failure of seal lubrication, detonation or if it suffers severe overheating, it will continue to produce power (smoothly too), allowing ample time and means to land safely. It's suitability for hard work is also why it claimed it's LeMans victory, a testament to rotary reliability. Seals don't and cannot 'just die' if there is alwyas adequate lubrication, cooling and a proper tune.

With regard to fuel efficiency, rotaries are inherently less thermally efficient than piston engines, due to the higher surface to volume ratio of the trochoid chambers (compared to a piston combustion chamber), combined with rich factory programming (to somewhat lube seals during cold starts and cold running) are the two differing factors to piston engine fuel economy. One of those problems can be easily solved with tuning.

The only real things that can kill a rotary are cold starts (in which no oil is metered), running out of oil, detonation and overheating... and let's face it, the rotary engine isn't for everyone. I'll tell ya though, it's definately for the people who like to make 350+hp per 650cc chamber
banana2.gif


About the death or end of the rotary development, I doubt it. Mazda is set to release a completely new rotary engine, now displacing 1600cc, with each rotor's width reduced and it's stroke increased. This will address the thermal efficiency problem, and it's the first rotary engine to venture into such dimensions. With it's increased rotor eccentricity(stroke), it is also expected to produce 30% more torque and HP over the outgoing Renesis. It will also have Direct Injection as well as port injection for more precise control of fuel, administred with different characteristics. This should get real insteresting
11.gif
 
Well, outside of a turbine ..the rotary is about the best thing going other than an over 100 year old design that's only been refined from the day it was created. I'd say that with about 30 years of limited exploration in development, the rotary has done pretty good as the only production level alternative.
 
Originally Posted By: rg200amp


...
Yes, i do know what I am talking about. Mazda owns [censored]. ford owns the rotary motor. Do you think there is a reason FORD, who has SAAB, LINCOLN, LANDROVER, ECT . . . dose not use the rotary, its because it is a bad motor.


You're making my case for me. Ford no longer owns Rover, they sold to Tata of India.

And FMC doesn't "own" anything proprietary of Mazda. What they "own" is a "majority" share under Japanese law, which is somewhere around 35%-40%. They can tech-rob Mazda to an extent, but they still cannot just grab whatever they want...

And Mazda is now trying to buy their way out of Ford, and likely will at least reduce Ford MC from majority partner by the end of next year. Mazda American Credit has already dropped Ford Motor Credit and now partners with Chase...

Quote:
And to what you said about the other car makers not being able to R+D. THEY DONT WANT TO because they see, and know how bad of a motor it is. if there was any upside to useing it, THEY WOULD.


Of course not! Why not just continue to use engines that are essentially 20, 30, even 50 years old essentially? No car company is doing anything but watching the bottom line since sales are down all over...

Quote:
Yes the small 1.3L put out a nice 240 HP, but it only puts out around 130 of TQ. Again, not so bad for a little 1.3, but now put it in a car. what you have now is one slow [censored] car.


Um, it's not a "slow [censored] car" by any means. Not as quick off the line, but it accelerates quickly and is meant to be redlined at 9000 rpm, which compensates for the low torque...

If you know how to use a standard, you'll have no problems with it...

Quote:
you pay for gas like a v10 dodge viper owner, you get the speed of a honda civic si, and to boot your motor is a [censored] to work on, and pricy for maintance. not to mention the great unreliablity of these motors.


Which makes it no different than any other car, and the Civic Si only displaces 197 HP and is a low torque engine as well, and will not have the handling...

In any case, the RX-8 is a finesse car, not a drag racer for teen boys with [censored] envy. If you're looking for blazing off-the-line racing, then this isn't the car for you...

Quote:
Unlike YOU, I have had a Rx8 for over a year. It was in the shop for more then 5 weeks, in that year.


So you bought the wrong car, and drove it the wrong way?

Sounds like you're an expert alright!
LOL.gif


Quote:
You cant even start the car cold, then turn it off because it will flood the motor!!!


Well, I'm beginning to realize why you had problems. When did that dawn on you? I think the instructions pretty clearly state that the car should always be brought to operating temp. and revved before shutdown...

If you were incapable of this, than you shouldn't have bought it. But just because you evidently didn't know how to operate it doesn't mean it's junk...

Quote:
The rotary motor is cool, but it is a bad design. Thats why no other car maker, including FORD(who owns mazda) will NEVER use a rotary.


*****!! So you're an engineer and engine builder here. Sorry, I'll take the advice of an engine builder like Doug over someone that can't be bothered to read directions in the final analysis of a car...

BTW, most high end sports cars using piston engines are also notoriously unreliable...

Is a Porsche "junk" too?
 
Originally Posted By: BGK
rg200amp said:
You are totally correct. The rotary engine has many faults that have never been solved. Chief are oil consumption and fuel economy. There are so many conventional internal combustion engines that work so much better. It wouldn't surprise me that Mazda will discontinue the rotary in the US altogether, though I have heard there is a next gen RX8 coming anyway.


Originally Posted By: rg200amp



It will be discontinued for Fedral emmissions laws sooner or later. I see mazda droping it way before that though.




And you're both wrong, again.
smirk2.gif


Quote:
Rumormill: 2012 Mazda RX-9, real or fake?

Posted Dec 28th 2007 7:57PM by Jonathon Ramsey
Filed under: Concept Cars, Coupes, Sports/GTs, Mazda
UPDATE: The renderings come from the latest issue of Winding Road, which contains a whole article on Mazda's plans for a new RX. Click here for more.

click above for more images of this 2012 Mazda RX-9 concept

The only car brochure we ever held on to was for a 1993 Mazda RX-7. It was the baddest car of the time -- the 300Z was four years old, the 911 had gone soft, Ferrari had that hideous 348, the C4 Corvette never really did it for us, and the lunar lander Supra hadn't landed yet. The low, tiny twin-turbo monster was it as far as we were concerned.

Which is why we are always happy to read about the next coming of the RX-7. Just Put has renderings of an RX-9 concept that it says would have a Wankel powerplant of somewhere around 1.8 liters, and be more oil and fuel efficient than the current generation. Power would make it to an unidentified number of wheels via a dual-clutch 6-speed transmission and limited-slip diff.
We have no idea from where these two renderings have come. They could be official images that were leaked. Their slightly low resolution supports that theory, as often leaked images are small and enlarged beyond their resolution later. Or it could be a nicely done photochop by a fanboy. Either way, we think it lacks aggression and the rear looks highly derivative. The front end's nicely complex features doesn't seem to match the simple buttocks, another reason why it might not be the real deal. But hey, first let's get verification that an RX-something-fast really is on the way, and we can sort out the styling later.

Thanks for the tip, Jon!

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/28/rumormill-2012-mazda-rx-9-real-or-fake/


Also:

http://www.zimbio.com/Mazda+RX-7/articles/14/2011+Mazda+RX+7+Coupe+Rendering+Speculations

http://www.autospies.com/news/2011-MAZDA-RX-7-30560/
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Why syn is not recommended id because the deposits left by the syn oil is too hard.


Um, no. It was because syn (PAO and POE) doesn't burn as easily and because of fuel dilution issues in the older models...
 
I see nick is the know it all when it comes to the rotary engine, since we all know he drove his friends rx8.

No, i never flooded my engine

Ford sold Jaguar, I did not know they sold rover, and I had a typo, ford owns volvo, not saab.



And yes, all other car makers use the piston engine. why fix a good thing, with a rotary.

It has a 9000rpm redline, so do most sport bikes, put there motor in a car, and you STILL have a slow [censored] car.


CAN YOU, with all of your rotary knowledge give us a upside to a rotary motor. what maks it better to use then a piston engine.

dose it make a lot of power and have good fuel economy?
is it reliable?

There is no upside to a rotary motor.

My lincoln has a Jaguar V8 motor in it. 280 horsepower out of a 3.9L I get 16MPG city 24MPG Hwy.

My rx8 had 240 HP, and got 10 mpg city, 16mpg Hwy.

SOOOO lets see, I get 40 more HP, ALMOST DOUBLE the TQ, and about 6 more MPG

NOW lets cross refrence EVERY PISTON ENGINE from nissans V6s to fords v8, and lets see what gets the best POWER, MPG, AND RELIABILTY


point made, the rotary is not as good and the piston.

Im done with this conversation now.
 
Hi,
rg200amp - History is littered with engines of all types that have been problematical

About 1975 in Michigan at the Test Track I took a Chrysler turbine prototype for a drive. GM also built a over the highway prototype Prime Mover that I had exposure to - Rover had one too - there has been many. They did not cut it. The Wankel engine has survived - but not as a volume seller of course

The Porsche M96 engine series has a "reputation". Yes some have been a problem with Porsche often providing a Factory built exchange engine FOC. It is estimated that around 15% of production had "problems" - and mainly in manual version vehicles. Some hundreds of thousands of these engines have proven to be reliable! It is a systematic problem analysis that tells the true story and mostly it is only the manufacturer that knows the detail

Many American engines - both petrol and diesel - have had very low reliabilty rates in past years. Ask many Cummins owners and mention the word "Signature" or L10. Some past Benz truck diesel engines were very problematic too. The list is extensive and widespread

Along with a number of other types of power units the Wankel engine still lives. Perhaps as I said earlier it's future is with hydrogen or some other type of fuel source - a gaseous one may work best - and a regenerative type would be ideal

Three or so decades ago many people thought the diesel engine was dead too.........................

A group of MB's Power Plant Design Engineers told me in Sindelfingen & Worth during my time with them there that the diesel engine had a forseeable development life of about 25 years! Look at diesel engine development now - do we forsee another 50 years?

IMO we should not discount any power source as fuel resources dimish and newer ones evolve
 
I know absolutely nothing about the RX8`s,but the last generation RX7 turbos are insanely fast! Incredible cars. They`re getting very rare. I can`t even remember the last time I saw one. Was the last year they were made limited number production?
 
Quote:
Along with a number of other types of power units the Wankel engine still lives. Perhaps as I said earlier it's future is with hydrogen or some other type of fuel source - a gaseous one may work best - and a regenerative type would be ideal


Tell me no one has tried an LPG rotary, Doug ..or rather ..has anyone tried LGP??

Who knows ..unless there's some geometric prohibition, maybe a hexagon would prove better.

I just hope we don't run out of R&D money before we crack the energy nut.
 
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