Lion Air crash

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have read that the ocean depth at the crash site is around 35 meters. Hopefully the boxes and recorders can be recovered to shed more light on what happened.

Unfortunately, mechanics log sheets and passenger manifests have been posted on the internet leading to lots of wild speculation.
 
Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by Sierra048
Scary. My son is a 737 pilot flying for Delta.

I would guess it is not the planes design because there are lots of them in the air.


An easy guess, but not always correct. A design flaw in this airplane affects thousands of aircraft. And design flaws have been uncovered...

There was a HUGE safety issue that affected every 737 about 20 years ago. It was a failure mode of the rudder PCU that caused an uncommanded full rudder deflection while in flight. Kind of like going full lock on your steering at highway speed. Two fatal crashes resulted.

When the flaw was discovered through cold-soak testing, the FAA grounded every 737 in the country, including United's entire fleet of 737s, and all of Delta's 737s, and all of American's 737s, every 737 in the country, except for SWA, who was allowed to keep flying the 737*, even though they had the exact same PCU and were subject to the exact same possibility of failure.

New PCUs were designed, built, and installed as fast as possible, and it was a huge effort across Boeing and the industry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues


*But don't worry, the FAA is fair and impartial...your government was looking out for you...
 
Originally Posted by Yah-Tah-Hey
Spartan grads.


If you're suggesting that Lion Air technicians are Spartan Grads, I would have to disagree, Lion Air has such a record of maintenance malpractice that Spartan would be a huge improvement in technical competence...
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by Sierra048
Scary. My son is a 737 pilot flying for Delta.

I would guess it is not the planes design because there are lots of them in the air.


An easy guess, but not always correct. A design flaw in this airplane affects thousands of aircraft. And design flaws have been uncovered...

There was a HUGE safety issue that affected every 737 about 20 years ago. It was a failure mode of the rudder PCU that caused an uncommanded full rudder deflection while in flight. Kind of like going full lock on your steering at highway speed. Two fatal crashes resulted.

When the flaw was discovered through cold-soak testing, the FAA grounded every 737 in the country, including United's entire fleet of 737s, and all of Delta's 737s, and all of American's 737s, every 737 in the country, except for SWA, who was allowed to keep flying the 737*, even though they had the exact same PCU and were subject to the exact same possibility of failure.

New PCUs were designed, built, and installed as fast as possible, and it was a huge effort across Boeing and the industry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues


*But don't worry, the FAA is fair and impartial...your government was looking out for you...


Why was SWA allowed to keep flying their 737s with potentially defective rudder PCUs?
 
Wish I knew...

"Public safety" demanded grounding every 737 until the PCUs could be replaced. Until modified, the PCU could still go hard over, causing a loss of control.

The FAA quickly modified that with a big set of exceptions: if the PCU was inspected and airline procedures were modified* then the operator could fly those 737s. Even though the inspection wouldn't guarantee freedom from a rudder hard over, the procedures should allow pilots to maintain control in the event of one.

SWA managed to inspect their airplanes, all of them, overnight.

Guess the FAA knew that grounding the 737 would put SWA at a disadvantage.


*the crux of the matter: crossover speeds.

The crossover speed is the minimum speed at which a rudder hardcover can be countered with aileron. If the airplane is below that speed, and the rudder goes hard over, the proverse roll from the yaw cannot be countered, and the airplane rolls over and crashes. Crossover speeds vary with flap setting.

Boeing procedures allowed for normal maneuvering at speeds well below crossover speed for a given flap setting. Overnight, pilots were told of "new minimum" speeds, based on roll control, instead of AOA, as was the previous convention. Some of those speeds were quite high, and near the maximum speeds for those flap settings, giving pilots very little margin for operation, but this set of procedures and speeds was put into place until every single PCU was replaced with the new, dual redundant, design.

That took many years.
 
Originally Posted by Danno
Interesting article on the crash

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/30/world/asia/indonesia-crash-lion-air-pitot.html


A plausible explanation. Pitot-static failures have caused many crashes over the years. Airliners are flown by instruments. If the pilots can't see what is actually going on, because the instruments are lying, well then, yeah, that makes the airplane hard to fly.

But it's too early to tell. Flight data, wreckage analysis, etc. still need to considered before any real cause can be determined...
 
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Yah-Tah-Hey said:
Spartan grads.


You always post that. Care to explain ? Went there many decades ago. "Premier aviation school in the world, training pilots and mechanics since 1928"' The "live equipment"
they touted in their recruitment literature had been dead for twenty five years.The only gas turbine they had reposed on the floor and served as a repository for styrofoam cups and other garbage coming off the roach coaches. Now they call it a "college." Credits will transfer to no accredited college or university. Nothing but a money making scam kept alive by federal loan dollars. Some aspects of Spartan School of Aeronautics are too embarrassing for me to mention, even after many years. Suffice it to say I was going to be knee-deep in airplanes and wound up being knee-deep in airplane junk. Bah Humbug.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by Yah-Tah-Hey
Spartan grads.


If you're suggesting that Lion Air technicians are Spartan Grads, I would have to disagree, Lion Air has such a record of maintenance malpractice that Spartan would be a huge improvement in technical competence...
That bad eh Astro. Not even P-51 mechanics (Parker 51).
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by Danno
Interesting article on the crash

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/30/world/asia/indonesia-crash-lion-air-pitot.html


A plausible explanation. Pitot-static failures have caused many crashes over the years. Airliners are flown by instruments. If the pilots can't see what is actually going on, because the instruments are lying, well then, yeah, that makes the airplane hard to fly.

But it's too early to tell. Flight data, wreckage analysis, etc. still need to considered before any real cause can be determined...


Looks like you might have called it.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/asia/lion-air-crash-plane-intact-intl/index.html

But I think even if it's a malfunction, the pilots should still have been able to fly the airplane. I think they also blamed the crash on the pilots of that Air France flight that ended up in the water also due to pitot tube problems.

Also just a question in general, GPS would give you the ground speed and the pitot tube would give you the air speed relative to what you're flying in the actual air, shouldn't a pilot be able to figure out that they're going too slow?

Also how do the stall warnings works? I think in a couple of these types of crashes, the pilots keep pulling up instead of putting the nose down and eventually the stall warnings stop once it goes beyond a certain angle.
 
Airplanes fly based on indicated airspeed. True airspeed isn't displayed in a way that's useful, nor is it particularly relevant.

Here you go: You're the pilot of Air France 447. You're at FL340, you have a complete pitot-static failure, but you can see on your navigation display that you have a groundspeed of 320 KTS true.

Too fast?

Or too slow?

Quick, answer me in the next two seconds, and if you're wrong, you and everyone else crash.
 
Describing how to fly an airplane has taken me hundreds of posts. See my F-14 thread.

Describing how to fly one with degraded instrumentation, would take hundreds more. It's not simple.

Removing airspeed from an airliner is a lot like covering up the windshield on your car...while you're on a mountain road...good luck. The instruments are like your windshield, not like your speedometer, they are everything.

We train to this stuff, and when I get some time, a lot of time, I'll talk about it, but you have to understand how the instrument is used before you can understand how its removal affects flight.

Air France wasn't as simple as everyone makes it out to be. But if you want to make it simple: the systems failed, gave complete flight control back to the pilots, who responded as they were trained, and did not understand what was actually happening.
 
Yes, read your previous threads, those were great, thanks for some good explanations.

Anyway, it's been a long while since I took a flying class so that's why I was asking. There's several other instruments like altitude, artificial horizon that may be working correctly so even if you don't really know what your airspeed is, you should still have altitude and if you're dropping, wouldn't that tell you you're going too slow? It seems like most crashes lately have been going too slow, not too many Vmax crashes, but I'm sure that's all part of training.

As for the Air France crash, I guess it just took 3:30 to go from 38,000 to the water and was stalled the whole time by one of the first officers. The wiki doesn't really explain why the first officer went nose up, aside from maybe that he was trying to adjust the roll of the plane and just basically overdid it.

Any comment on the ground collision avoidance system? It did sound in the Air France incident, but by the time it happened, it was too late to do anything about it. The military seems to have more advanced ones that can detect the impending crash and do something about it although I suppose there's a question as to how well it would work when there's a system failure like the pitot tubes.
 
Flying with an unreliable or broken instrument isn't that big of a deal, especially in a cockpit with multiple of everything. The big issue is being "surprised" by it and then all the time it takes to figure out what is wrong that'll cause a crash.

If you're in a sim, expecting a failure, it's a totally different story.
 
Originally Posted by E365
Flying with an unreliable or broken instrument isn't that big of a deal, especially in a cockpit with multiple of everything. The big issue is being "surprised" by it and then all the time it takes to figure out what is wrong that'll cause a crash.

If you're in a sim, expecting a failure, it's a totally different story.


Yes, and no...

You're quite right about the startle factor being detrimental to performance.

But it's not "one" instrument that failed on AF 447, and I doubt that it's "one" instrument that failed on this one.

On AF 447, EVERY pitot-static instrument was faulty. The probes iced up - and fed erroneous data into the air data computers.


AF 447 flew into thunderstorms over the ocean. Dark. Night. No horizon. The Airbus 330 had a known pitot-static probe problem. They were prone to icing up and Airbus had redesigned the probes. This airplane was due for the probe replacement.

The probes iced up in the thunderstorm, all of them. That caused the airspeed to be wrong, showing an overspeed, so the airplane pitched up, to protect itself. That's how it was designed.

As the airplane climbed and decelerated (from the autoflight envelope protections) every airspeed indicator showed an increase in airspeed as the airplane was getting slower. That's the nature of a pitot static failure.

So, the airplane was getting slower, but the autoflight thought it was getting faster and so, the autopilot pitched up and pulled the power back before recognizing that the airspeed was faulty.
In that event, the autopilot was designed to disconnect and give complete control back to the pilots. That's what happened, along with all the warnings, chimes/lights, etc. Serious startle response. A dark night, thunderstorms, now warnings, and autopilot disconnect.

They saw the same thing on their instruments - airplane overspeed. So they pulled up more, and stalled the airplane, even though their flight instruments showed that the airplane was dangerously overspeeding.

They were responding to what they saw: too fast.

Too fast on both sets of instruments. Too fast on the standby instruments. All were wrong. And the startle response didn't help - late at night, in a thunderstorm, turbulence, and then, the autoflight fails, and suddenly, the airplane is flying to fast as warnings go off and cascading failures register on ECAM... They responded as trained - pull up to prevent the overspeed that was clearly displayed in front of them (except that the airplane wasn't overspeeding, that was a lie, represented by every instrument).

Then, the stall began, and it took them awhile to realize that the airplane was stalled, if they ever did.

Stall recovery procedure in an Airbus - full power, full backstick. The autoflight, in normal law, will keep the airplane at optimum AOA. That's how it's designed, that's how pilots are trained to fly the airplane. That's what this crew did, basically*, until water impact. They did what they were trained to do. They didn't understand what they were seeing - it was illogical, it didn't make sense, and yeah, they were startled by the disconnect, warnings, and overspeed.

Except on that night, buried among the dozens of warnings was this: alternate law.

In normal operations, the Airbus Fly By Wire system has a host of envelope protections. The system won't allow a pilot to stall, overspeed, overbank, pitch too far nose up, or nose down. This set of portections, and the way that the controls respond to stick inputs are known as "normal law." If the system loses air data input, then it degrades - it can't know the parameters accurately, and so it removes those protections, and allows the pilots full authority, a different set of control responses known as "alternate law"

Among other things, alternate law means that the airplane won't hold optimum AOA with full backstick, it will allow full nose up elevator, and it will trim to full nose up stabilizer, deepening the stall. IF they ever saw that alternate law warning, among the dozens of warnings, they didn't say it, and if they saw it, they didn't understand the meaning.

One of my big issues with Airbus design is that alternate law isn't as obvious as it should be. If the flight controls change how they work, and hence, how the airplane will respond, that's CRITICAL information. Information that might've made a difference to those guys on that night.


From the BEA:

Final report
On 5 July 2012, the BEA released its final report on the accident. This confirmed the findings of the preliminary reports and provided additional details and recommendations to improve safety. According to the final report,[224] the accident resulted from the following succession of major events:

- temporary inconsistency between the measured speeds, likely as a result of the obstruction of the pitot tubes by ice crystals, causing autopilot disconnection and reconfiguration to alternate law;
- the crew made inappropriate control inputs that destabilized the flight path;
- the crew failed to follow appropriate procedure for loss of displayed airspeed information;
- the crew were late in identifying and correcting the deviation from the flight path;
- the crew lacked understanding of the approach to stall;
- the crew failed to recognize the aircraft had stalled and consequently did not make inputs that would have made it possible to recover from the stall.

These events resulted from the following major factors in combination:

- feedback mechanisms on the part of those involved made it impossible to identify and remedy the repeated non-application of the procedure for inconsistent airspeed, and to ensure that crews were trained in icing of the pitot probes and its consequences;
- the crew lacked practical training in manually handling the aircraft both at high altitude and in the event of anomalies of speed indication;
- the two co-pilots' task sharing was weakened both by incomprehension of the situation at the time of autopilot disconnection, and by poor management of the "startle effect", leaving them in an emotionally charged situation;
- the cockpit lacked a clear display of the inconsistencies in airspeed readings identified by the flight computers;
- the crew did not respond to the stall warning, whether due to a failure to identify the aural warning, to the transience of the stall warnings that could have been considered spurious, to the absence of any visual information that could confirm that the aircraft was approaching stall after losing the characteristic speeds, to confusing stall-related buffet for overspeed-related buffet, to the indications by the Flight Director that might have confirmed the crew's mistaken view of their actions, or to difficulty in identifying and understanding the implications of the switch to alternate law, which does not protect the angle of attack.

https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp090601.en.pdf

*at one point, the other FO, pushed full forward on the stick. He knew that the displayed parameters made no sense. But because the horizontal stabilizer had fully trimmed nose up, it would have taken at least 30 seconds of forward stick to re-trim to full nose down. Even then, the stall was so deep that full nose down stabilizer may not have overcome the pitch up from engine thrust. Full nose down elevator, full nose down stab, and a bit of thrust reduction would have been required. In informal simulator testing (I used to fly the Airbus 320 - same flight control system/logic), we reckoned that it would have taken them about 10,000 feet to recover from the deep stall that they were in, if they recognized the situation, and applied full forward stick for over 30 seconds, and pulled the power back a bit to regain AOA control before applying full power and smoothly recovering from the ensuing dive.
 
Astor thanks for the input. i would never want to do more that steer a Cessna 152
!
eek.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom