Buster, most conservatives understand every liberal argument as they were once liberal. I doubt you can say the same for most liberals.
My observation.
My observation.
Liberals Attack Fox News
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labman, I’m not sure what a true liberal even is these days. I know Libertarians still like to call themselves “liberals” even if it isn’t really appropriate anymore. True Libertarians are actually part of the far right. It would be fun to get a liberal convention together and hear self-proclaimed liberals argue over all the issues. It might be a little frightening, but definitely educational and worth watching.
nortones2, labels have their use AND limitations. The terms change over time and in the past 200 years, the setting, culture, issues and use of the label has changed enough to make them incomparable.
ekpolk, I’m not sure what you are getting at. Certain professions tend to lean one way or another ... but that’s just a generalization and you can’t hold individuals to generalizations. I work for state government … yet I am very conservative as are a few others in my office. The tort/trial lawyers are the #1 contributors to the Democrat party.
MikeR, yes, I built a rather large straw man. However within that list are things I’ve actually heard liberals say. I did not make those thoughts/positions out of whole cloth. Mario Cuomo thought a big (state) government, fed by high taxes produced a lavish welfare state which made life better for its citizens. Don’t agree? (most people didn’t, and voted him out) Take it up with him, not me.
And I hope NO ONE has forgotten the liberal blame-America-first people who said that the United States was asking to be attacked and its actions around the world were to blame for September 11.
ALL of what I wrote in that list reflects what I have heard liberal Democrats say or strongly imply over the years. But yes, I did have some fun adding some “tone” to the dialogue.
“- Problems are usually more complicated than they seem. Being able to think our way through complex problems is humanity's greatest asset.
- Morality exists independently from religion.
- Everyone's equal and has a right to be treated that way.
- People don't necessarily get into positions of power by having others' best interests at heart.
- I don't like to pay taxes, but I know they pay for schools, roads, national defense, police... In exchange, I demand that those who are in charge are accountable to the way in which they spend my tax dollars.”
I agree with everything you say above ... and am very conservative (and secular, for the record). I think your view of conservatives could use a little updating if you think what you stated conflicts with conservative ideology. You say those thoughts expressed in my list are ridiculous. Well, I think you need to spend some in the Northeast cities ... or in San Francisco. People who believe in those “loaded statements” really exist, just not in Texas.
moribundman, be advised: calling someone names (in this case “ignoramus”) is strictly against forum rules.
buster as Pablo points out, I think you also have a skewed view of what conservatives believe. I’m no anarchist (the most extreme of the right wing) which believes in zero government ... and aside from nuts retreating into the hills to live alone, I don’t know of any. But at this point in our history, given the amount of government we have (and what we know about how government functions) do we want more or less of it?
To have the government grow only as fast as the economy so that it remains at the same percentage of the GNP as it is currently is actually conservative. It is the liberals who want a larger and larger role for government in our lives ... just like they have in Europe.
And I even agree that there are often “shades of gray” in most situations. But I DON’T let that stop me from making decisions/judgments/commitments like many others. Some grays are very light, almost white. Use your head to decipher the facts as best you can then make a commitment. I’m wishy-washy on very few issues.
And thanks to Pablo and Groucho for their observations. I was once a liberal ... who actually voted for Mike Dukakis.
I know the mindset/think as I not only know these people ... but was once one of them.
--- Bror Jace
labman, I’m not sure what a true liberal even is these days. I know Libertarians still like to call themselves “liberals” even if it isn’t really appropriate anymore. True Libertarians are actually part of the far right. It would be fun to get a liberal convention together and hear self-proclaimed liberals argue over all the issues. It might be a little frightening, but definitely educational and worth watching.
nortones2, labels have their use AND limitations. The terms change over time and in the past 200 years, the setting, culture, issues and use of the label has changed enough to make them incomparable.
ekpolk, I’m not sure what you are getting at. Certain professions tend to lean one way or another ... but that’s just a generalization and you can’t hold individuals to generalizations. I work for state government … yet I am very conservative as are a few others in my office. The tort/trial lawyers are the #1 contributors to the Democrat party.
MikeR, yes, I built a rather large straw man. However within that list are things I’ve actually heard liberals say. I did not make those thoughts/positions out of whole cloth. Mario Cuomo thought a big (state) government, fed by high taxes produced a lavish welfare state which made life better for its citizens. Don’t agree? (most people didn’t, and voted him out) Take it up with him, not me.
And I hope NO ONE has forgotten the liberal blame-America-first people who said that the United States was asking to be attacked and its actions around the world were to blame for September 11.
ALL of what I wrote in that list reflects what I have heard liberal Democrats say or strongly imply over the years. But yes, I did have some fun adding some “tone” to the dialogue.
“- Problems are usually more complicated than they seem. Being able to think our way through complex problems is humanity's greatest asset.
- Morality exists independently from religion.
- Everyone's equal and has a right to be treated that way.
- People don't necessarily get into positions of power by having others' best interests at heart.
- I don't like to pay taxes, but I know they pay for schools, roads, national defense, police... In exchange, I demand that those who are in charge are accountable to the way in which they spend my tax dollars.”
I agree with everything you say above ... and am very conservative (and secular, for the record). I think your view of conservatives could use a little updating if you think what you stated conflicts with conservative ideology. You say those thoughts expressed in my list are ridiculous. Well, I think you need to spend some in the Northeast cities ... or in San Francisco. People who believe in those “loaded statements” really exist, just not in Texas.
moribundman, be advised: calling someone names (in this case “ignoramus”) is strictly against forum rules.
buster as Pablo points out, I think you also have a skewed view of what conservatives believe. I’m no anarchist (the most extreme of the right wing) which believes in zero government ... and aside from nuts retreating into the hills to live alone, I don’t know of any. But at this point in our history, given the amount of government we have (and what we know about how government functions) do we want more or less of it?
To have the government grow only as fast as the economy so that it remains at the same percentage of the GNP as it is currently is actually conservative. It is the liberals who want a larger and larger role for government in our lives ... just like they have in Europe.
And I even agree that there are often “shades of gray” in most situations. But I DON’T let that stop me from making decisions/judgments/commitments like many others. Some grays are very light, almost white. Use your head to decipher the facts as best you can then make a commitment. I’m wishy-washy on very few issues.
And thanks to Pablo and Groucho for their observations. I was once a liberal ... who actually voted for Mike Dukakis.
--- Bror Jace
Motorguy222, I asked you to post your original link as I thought it might have come come Fox News, not because I thought it was a lie. Your other posts were excellant and really spured a good conversation here. Without doing any further investigation on the Pew Poll I will agree that most journalists are liberal leaning. But I think they are because they go into the stories and find that their indepth investigation leads to a realization that simplistic explanations and on the surface observations are usually wrong. I don't find any TV news of much value as it has developed mostly into "infotainment". I don't have cable so most of my evening news is from ABC,NBC,CBS in that order. First it's only 1/2 hour not enough time to give a lot of background and second it always wants to exit with a positive spin wether true or not. There are never any hard questions because the politicians have learned that if they get hard questions they simply don't give access. So reporters have all given into the game and the rest of us loose. If I want indepth discussion and background then I listen to NPR shows such as "The Connection". Now I haven't seen where Bush has been treated unkindly, in fact as more information comes out of this administration we are finding they should have been asked a lot more hard questions.
As for my "liberal" outlook,MikeR's post hits the nail on the head,
"- Problems are usually more complicated than they seem. Being able to think our way through complex problems is humanity's greatest asset.
- Morality exists independently from religion.
- Everyone's equal and has a right to be treated that way.
- People don't necessarily get into positions of power by having others' best interests at heart.
- I don't like to pay taxes, but I know they pay for schools, roads, national defense, police... In exchange, I demand that those who are in charge are accountable to the way in which they spend my tax dollars."
As for my "liberal" outlook,MikeR's post hits the nail on the head,
"- Problems are usually more complicated than they seem. Being able to think our way through complex problems is humanity's greatest asset.
- Morality exists independently from religion.
- Everyone's equal and has a right to be treated that way.
- People don't necessarily get into positions of power by having others' best interests at heart.
- I don't like to pay taxes, but I know they pay for schools, roads, national defense, police... In exchange, I demand that those who are in charge are accountable to the way in which they spend my tax dollars."
That is what I ment. Very well stated!!!quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
To see everything in black and white instead of seeing shades of grey is easier for many people. It gives them security and makes it much simpler to come to conclusions. You villify the one who differs in opinion, and you do it indiscriminately to dehumanize them. Many people, not all, of all parties and convictions are guilty of this, and it really undermines efforts of communication to a point where people of one persuasion won't even listen to those of another persuasion.
Anybody who starts out saying anything like "Those liberals, those conservatives, those Frenchisn't worth listening to in my book, because he's unwilling or uncapable of constructive discussion and only out to throw dirt like a 3 year old in his sandbox.
The theory sounds nice, but the reality is a bit different.
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Bror Jace, don't make me laugh. Violating common sense should also be against the forum rules.
First of all, I stuck my tongue out at ya, so you should have known that what I said I said in jest.
Also, what do you call someone who claims that every issue is black or white? Isn't that labeling? I don't hear you speak up if others label someone or something -- unless it conflicts with your views. I'm not allowed to express MY opinion, eh?
Your views really make me believe that you have chosen the easy way out. Everything is clearcut for you. I can't help but call that sort of attitude ignorant, even if it's ignorant by choice.
So go ahead and have me silenced for violating the holier-than-thou forum rules. You can't stand that someone opposes your views? Suck it up or run to your mommy and say the bad boy called you a bad name. Go ahead, make my day!
Everyone needs to chill out. Thread is locked until further notice.
Get out your flamethrowers, but I'll ask anyway.
How much money have we, and will we spend on Iraq? What would happen if we spent that much here?
How much money have we, and will we spend on Iraq? What would happen if we spent that much here?
"What would happen if we spent that much here?"
That's an easy one: We would have a population that much more dependent on government spending ... as if they aren't already over-dependent.
needtoknow: "I will agree that most journalists are liberal leaning. But I think they are because they go into the stories and find that their indepth investigation leads to a realization that simplistic explanations and on the surface observations are usually wrong."
Can't be. Liberal views are at least as simplistic as conservative ones. Probably even more so as the socialistic/big-government approach they favor historically never works.
And as I and others pointed out, what MikeR said he believed in can just as well apply to someone who calls him/herself a "conservative."
--- Bror Jace
[ July 16, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Bror Jace ]
That's an easy one: We would have a population that much more dependent on government spending ... as if they aren't already over-dependent.
needtoknow: "I will agree that most journalists are liberal leaning. But I think they are because they go into the stories and find that their indepth investigation leads to a realization that simplistic explanations and on the surface observations are usually wrong."
Can't be. Liberal views are at least as simplistic as conservative ones. Probably even more so as the socialistic/big-government approach they favor historically never works.
And as I and others pointed out, what MikeR said he believed in can just as well apply to someone who calls him/herself a "conservative."
--- Bror Jace
[ July 16, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Bror Jace ]
Easy? So, it's 'bad' to spend money on education,healthcare, etc., but nobody sees a problem with spending it to invade Iraq?
Obviously, you disagree with current foreign policy. However, we have to share this planet with others and they don't always play nice.
September 11 showed us in dramatic fashion that our vacation from participating in world affairs is over. And playing internationally involves carrots and sticks ... both of which cost $$$
The problems we have with education have nothing to do with money. Often, students in schools with lesser funding outperform students in schools with more money.
Healthcare? Our government already spends too much and our population keeps asking for more, more, more.
I'd rather see any "extra" money the government has be given back to the people (those who pay taxes, that is) so we can spend it on anything we want ... and it's still a free country so you are free to spend it on healthcare and education if you like.
--- Bror Jace
September 11 showed us in dramatic fashion that our vacation from participating in world affairs is over. And playing internationally involves carrots and sticks ... both of which cost $$$
The problems we have with education have nothing to do with money. Often, students in schools with lesser funding outperform students in schools with more money.
Healthcare? Our government already spends too much and our population keeps asking for more, more, more.
I'd rather see any "extra" money the government has be given back to the people (those who pay taxes, that is) so we can spend it on anything we want ... and it's still a free country so you are free to spend it on healthcare and education if you like.
--- Bror Jace
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