Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl

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14
Location
Ohio
Hi everyone, I have a 2018 Massey Ferguson GC1720 subcompact tractor ready for the 50 hour maintenance. I would like to run a full synthetic for my machine wherever I can. I am going to put full synthetic Rotella T6 15w-40 in the engine, and use a Mobil 1 filter, there. The manual calls for Permatran 821xl hydraulic fluid in the transmission and front differential. Unfortunately, I am not close to the dealer I purchased it from. Ordering a 5 gallon pail of 821xl would be expensive to ship. I am near numerous John Deere, Cub Cadet, Kubota, etc dealership, just no Massey Ferguson dealers. May I use Kubota Super UDT2 in my tractor in place of the Permatran 821xl? I cannot find a listing of the certifications for the Kubota fluid. The publications I do find illustrate that it is full synthetic-but no dealership parts center I call knows for sure. They think it's a blend. I am uploading the Permatran 821xl publication screenshots I am referencing. I also added the Kubota publication screenshots for Super UDT2. It is not as encompassing with certs but lists the oil properties. Here are links to where my screenshots originated: http://www.rudolphbrosinc.com/PartsGuides/AGCOPartsLubricantsGuide.pdf https://www.kubotausa.com/parts/kubota-parts-products/lubricants

perm1.jpg


perm2.jpg


kub.jpg
 

CT8

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15,392
Location
Idaho
The only benefit you will find running syn oils is the below freezing starting. Which ever oil you choose the quality is paramount.
 
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7,979
Location
MI
I don't have your answer. The Permatran 821xl has viscosity that is almost identical to the John Deere Hygard J-20C. The Kubota UDT2 viscosity is lower, in-between the JD Hygard and JD Low Viscosity Hygard. In making your decision, I would investigate if the Massey will perform o.k. with a lower viscosity hydrostatic fluid (UDT2), especially in the hot summer months. Maybe the guys at tractorbynet.com will be able to assist you more. Let us know what you learn.
 

Nacademus

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14
Location
Ohio
I understand. I assumed that a lower viscosity oil could potentially run smoother, provide less cavitation (seemingly evident by the groaning noise that has increased in noticeability over the last 50h since the day I've owned my tractor), and maybe generate less heat. I am unable to find this same question on Tractorbynet. I see more allusion to Permatran III and not the newly formulated Permatran 821xl. And most reference to the Kubota Super UDT2 resides within the Kubota forum trees. It's just been really hard for me to research. I might just go the extra 2 hours and get the oil it calls for-but if that is the same as the delivery oil, I do not look forward to the heat and noise that developed. I couldn't even uncouple my backhoe while hot without gloves-burned my hand. Now, I know it's always going to be warm/hot to the touch and you shouldn't expect to decouple freshy, hot hydraulic QCs like that. But I think this level of heat was more that it SHOULD have been. I wouldn't say that I am unfamiliar with hydraulic equipment
 
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Nacademus

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14
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Ohio
I live in Northern Ohio. Even though this past year we've had rather mild winter, we have had a few days of below 0F. Naturally, the day I needed to move the snow off my property was one of these days. I did not notice anything exciting about the cold weather operation. Maybe a little bit of jittering in the controls while operating bone cold.
 
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360
Location
Reno, Nevada
I also have a GC1720 and I hang out at tractorbynet. The various subcompact tractor owners there are using Schaeffers tractor hydraulic fluid, Kubota SUDT2, Amsoil tractor hydraulic fluid in addition to Permatran 821XL. I'm using Lubrication Engineers Power Fluid 7500 which is not a synthetic and works well. Like CT8 said, quality of the product is important, not so much whether it's synthetic or not. The LE price and shipping has gone up out of my comfort zone so I'll probably use something different next time. The factory installed hydraulic fluid was badly discolored when I changed it at 30 hours. The LE7500 still looks new after 70 hours. I do a lot of snowblowing and heavy loader work and the fluid gets a workout. Only consideration I would have is to confirm that whatever oil you choose meets the Permatran spec, just in the unlikely case you have a warranty problem in the hydraulic system.
 
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7,979
Location
MI
AGCO sure doesn't make things easy. Your AGCO product guide link above is from 2006. They came out with a Permatran 821XL Plus formula that is discontinued. They now have a semi synthetic formula I have yet to find the specs for: https://www.facebook.com/bakerandso...etic-transmission-and-/1792973900978204/ ...At least this should be better than the Group II non synthetic you show above. Find the specs. for this newer semi synthetic and it might lead you to determine the Kubota UDT2 is o.k.. Or, at least you should feel better if you decide to go out of your way to buy the Permatran - it's now a better fluid.
 

Nacademus

Thread starter
Messages
14
Location
Ohio
I reached out to Messick's Equipment, a Kubota dealership with a lot of presence on YouTube. I asked their thoughts on using Super UDT2 in my GC and they told me it would be fine. I know they're not on the hook should something happen. I wouldn't expect anything to, but who knows? Maybe my MF is special and will decide to eat itself on this oil for whatever reason. I appreciate the comments. I don't think I can source the Chevron THF locally. Cheapest delivered price is $250/5gal. I can't seem to find a more recent Permatran 821xl publication for some reason-but if its BETTER now than its shown, maybe I'll just suck it up and go get it, along with the hydro filter I need. Finding a Kubota Super UDT2 cert list would make me a lot happier if I elect to stay close to home. Its literally 2 miles for the UDT2 vs 150 round trip to get the Permatran. Rats.
 
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15,763
Location
NE,Ohio
How about using deere hygard its around $70 for 5 gallons. gallons are $15 its a quality product "Hy-Gard oil can be used in most applications calling for 10W-30 or 5W-30 engine oil for transmission and hydraulic oils. Note: Hy-Gard should be used in all applications calling for JDM J20C" Tons of Deere dealers around, or shipped from amazon 5 gal for $76 including shipping.
 
Messages
7,979
Location
MI
I think he wants to go with a synthetic product with better flow rate/cold temp. performance. Here's the only spec sheet that shows some certs, but it is from 2010: https://kubotacustomercare.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/52073/0/filename/Kubota+Super+UDT2+Fluid+PI+Sheet+%281%29.pdf FYI, my workplace JD 4115 compact hydrostatic tractor runs the Low Vis Hygard with no problems summer/winter. It's viscosity is 7.1/33 (100degC/40deg.C). Their temp. chart differs, but I contacted JD tech. and they recommended the Low Vis, what was installed at the factory. Lots of similar discussions all over the net. Its very similar to the discussions here about tranny fluids. The manufacturers marketing suggests their fluid is the very best and ONLY product to use in their machine. Some people follow that and some don't.
 

CT8

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15,392
Location
Idaho
The break in period is brutal on the oil because there is much higher friction from the machined surfaces as well the wear particles in the oil no matter what the component is.
 

Nacademus

Thread starter
Messages
14
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted by doitmyself
I think he wants to go with a synthetic product with better flow rate/cold temp. performance. Here's the only spec sheet that shows some certs, but it is from 2010: https://kubotacustomercare.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/52073/0/filename/Kubota+Super+UDT2+Fluid+PI+Sheet+%281%29.pdf FYI, my workplace JD 4115 compact hydrostatic tractor runs the Low Vis Hygard with no problems summer/winter. It's viscosity is 7.1/33 (100degC/40deg.C). Their temp. chart differs, but I contacted JD tech. and they recommended the Low Vis, what was installed at the factory. Lots of similar discussions all over the net. Its very similar to the discussions here about tranny fluids. The manufacturers marketing suggests their fluid is the very best and ONLY product to use in their machine. Some people follow that and some don't.
I appreciate linking me to that document. You can see in the text that its recommended where Permatran III is used-I can imagine this could also stand up for the 821xl if I can find a newer document. I might reach out to Kubota directly about it. I've got a little time to kill smile
 

Nacademus

Thread starter
Messages
14
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted by CT8
The break in period is brutal on the oil because there is much higher friction from the machined surfaces as well the wear particles in the oil no matter what the component is.
I definitely agree with that. I wonder if because of this, oil shear is happening causing my trans to groan and moan more than since day one...
 

Nacademus

Thread starter
Messages
14
Location
Ohio
[Linked Image] Here is a picture of the previously referenced document that doitmyself shared. Dated 2010. I have emailed Kubota Customer Service to ask for a new list of certifications and shared the document for reference. Maybe I'm thinking about this too much. I will share their response. Maybe it could help someone else, someday.
 
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Nacademus

Thread starter
Messages
14
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted by zeng
Super UDT2 [email protected] of 37 cSt is low'ish and IMHO, is not a suitable replacement for Permatran 821xl of much higher [email protected] of 57.6 cSt.
Hi Zeng, So the SUDT2 would in turn be less viscous at or above operating temp than Permatran 821xl, right? Many people across quite a few forums remark about how mechanically similar the Massey Ferguson GC Series subcompact tractors are to the Kubota subcompacts. I've read that even a few parts interchange. I haven't checked, myself so this is all hearsay. If the viscosity is lower, could that grenade the pump? I wasn't sure if viscosity relates directly with lubricity or not, but you may be onto something. Pump tolerances could be at play.
 
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Nacademus

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Messages
14
Location
Ohio
Kubota replied to me but it wasn't particularly helpful. They gave me the SDS for the oil-not the certifications I was hoping to get. Looks like I will be traveling a few hours to get the Permatran 821xl...
 
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9,680
Location
Ontario, Canada
You probably won't be operating the tractor much with the fluid at 40C anyways, unless you like to start it up and run it for 5 mins at a time often? In my non expert opinion I think the KRL 20hr shear test is something good to look at with a HST transmission and the conventional duratran tractor fluid with lower a VI holds its 100C viscosity better than the synthetics or synthetic blends in Petro-Canada products in that test. What the fluid is like in the jug isn't as important as what's like at 100hrs in the tractor IMO. It seems only Petro Canada actually publishes a shear test result though. I do warm up my tractor and run it for an hour plus and fairly hard usually so cold flow isn't as important to me as how the fluids handle higher temps and loads. I think you will be fine with any name brand conventional tractor fluid and I figured duratran was the best I could get here, but just stay away from the store or discount brands.
 
Messages
7,979
Location
MI
Originally Posted by IndyIan
You probably won't be operating the tractor much with the fluid at 40C anyways, unless you like to start it up and run it for 5 mins at a time often? In my non expert opinion I think the KRL 20hr shear test is something good to look at with a HST transmission and the conventional duratran tractor fluid with lower a VI holds its 100C viscosity better than the synthetics or synthetic blends in Petro-Canada products in that test. What the fluid is like in the jug isn't as important as what's like at 100hrs in the tra ctor IMO. It seems only Petro Canada actually publishes a shear test result though. I do warm up my tractor and run it for an hour plus and fairly hard usually so cold flow isn't as important to me as how the fluids handle higher temps and loads. I think you will be fine with any name brand conventional tractor fluid and I figured duratran was the best I could get here, but just stay away from the store or discount brands.
LOL, I'm sure Nacademus is now regretting ever asking this question. OCD sucks! Indylan, ironic that you mentioned VI and shearing. The Chevron product I mentioned above has a VI of 204, making me wonder if that is from a great base stock or from added VI Improvers that can shear? shrug Regarding your "fluids handle higher temps and loads." , that is what I also thought about my JD 4115 mentioned above. The Hygard temp. charts suggest that regular HY Gard is best for my conditions. The tractor came from the factory with low vis and contact with JD corporate recommended I stay with the low vis as the "lesser of two evils" (thin vs. thick). None of this makes sense and Nacademus is left hanging with lots of differing opinions. shrug shrug Finally, I called a very large local AGCO dealer to get a spec. sheet of the newer semi-synthetic Permatran. He said he could not get it and it didn't matter because they are all the same.....New Holland, JD 303, ..... duh Yea, I miss the days of being like that.
 
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