Kerry's Vietnam Unit Upset

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Seeing as there was no physical done how can you say for sure why it was not done? Is there some evidence that your STORY is correct?

Even if he was how does that effect today?
Didn't Clinton take a drunken tumble down some stairs and injure his knee while in office? I think that is a lot worse that a man who MAYBE USED to overindulge.
 
When the elbow bending is chronic and results in one being unfit for military duty, I think its pretty serious. More than having a drink with friends, and stumbling on the stairs. Clinton was on the job the next day.

No one can definitively say why Bush did not take the physical. Most of his military records from this time period have disappeared in some mysterious fashion, and he is offering no explanations. His supporters, therefore, are in no position to criticize others regarding military service.

And if what happened 30 years ago is irrelevant, then why do the Kerry detractors keep on raising things that he supposedly did 30 years ago?
 
quote:

Originally posted by k1xv:
And if what happened 30 years ago is irrelevant, then why do the Kerry detractors keep on raising things that he supposedly did 30 years ago?

I think I read somewhere the Kerry served in Vietnam.

Keith.
 
quote:

Originally posted by k1xv:
.......
I was of military age in those days. It was impossible to get into a National Guard Unit unless you had somebody with lots of pull who would move you to the top of the list.
.............


I joined the Air National Guard on 24May66. I had NO pull whatsoever. I was 17 years of age and a week away from HS graduation when I was sworn in. My unit had about 900 as well. You were expected to meet your obligation without excuses. But, I sure can't recall attendance records from this period either.

I worked full-time for my Guard Unit for about a year as did about 100 others. Our job was to keep the base functioning. I do know that the pilots were often there during the week, and not there during drill weekend. Why? I suspect logistics, but they never thought that I needed to be informed as to the reasons.

BTW, many Guard Units were called up, and it was no cake walk. I was on a volunteer mission with opart of my Unit when we were called up to help protect power plants in the Cleveland area during rioting. Some Guard Units were called to help keep order at Ohio State University, and sadly, Kent State University.

Oh, about Kent State. The Units on that duty had NO training for that exercise. Both sides ending up losing. I've often wondered what I'd have done if a kid threw a rock at my head when I had a loaded M14/M16 in my hands. In many cases, the people on either side were peers. I could have easily been sent to Ohio State University to help keep order when I was a student at Ohio State University.

The Guard had a strategic mission in those days that is now forgotten when it serves a political purpose.

My best friend of forty years served with the Marines in Nam. He still suffers because of this. During the first Gulf War, he went nuts after seeing it unfold on TV. He was hospitalized for several months because of this. It was many years before he was like himself again. Several weeks ago, after listening to Mr. Kerry, he called to say that Mr. Kerry didn't represent the view of all solders. He thanked me for my service in the Guard. It chocked me up.

Jack
 
IF and I mean IF Bush did have a drinking problem and that is resolved then that is not an issue I do not want anyone in office who currently has a drinking problem and I don't think either candiate does AT THIS TIME.

Kerry's actions of 30years ago speak more to character and beleifs than an alchol problem does, and if Bush actually had been AWOL then that would be a problem but it seems he was very dedicated for several years then in the last year somewhat moved on to something else but STILL FULFILLED the requirements which he had vastly exeeded for several years previous. By the points system I wonder what the average is, I bet that many many guardsmen fulfill requirements but not by a huge margin that does not make them bad they are still serving their country and if called apon are right there to do their job fultime. I personally would rather a Commander-in-Chief(I think too many forget that part of the job) that stuck out his service on our soil even if it was with less enthusiasm in the end than one that came home as fast as possible from a hosile zone and did nothing but bash his former fellow soldiers. Being critial of a war is one thing Kerry's action are another.
 
Joatmon:

The era I spoke of was 1968 when things were a little more heated up in Viet Nam. Bush graduated Yale in June 1968 and that is when he joined the Texas Air National Guard.

As you know, the National Guard is organized on a state by state basis. In New Jersey, where I lived at the time, the waiting list was years long by 1968.

I am sure you served honorably and well.
cheers.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by k1xv:
Joatmon:

The era I spoke of was 1968 when things were a little more heated up in Viet Nam. Bush graduated Yale in June 1968 and that is when he joined the Texas Air National Guard.

As you know, the National Guard is organized on a state by state basis. In New Jersey, where I lived at the time, the waiting list was years long by 1968.

I am sure you served honorably and well.
cheers.gif


Thank-you for your reply. I had many friends that joined my Unit in 67 and 68. No pull. I don't really know about Texas.

I did my job. And it was a job. I could have used a student deferment, but chose the Guard option.

I do applaud Mr. Kerry for his service. And, I salute the President becuase he could have surely wiggled through without joining the Guard given his connections.

I would not want people to judge me by examining my record when I was 17 - 23 years of age. Not my best moments. Mr. Kerry and the President both seem to have done some things in their earlier days that they'd probably not do today.

Who will do the best job of leading us through the next 4 years? That is the question. Learn all you can and then vote.

Jack
 
motorguy222,
cheers.gif


I think a lot of people like me are a little frustrated that Kerry is often lauded as a "decorated Vietnam veteran" or "war hero" by so many people in the media. I just don't see the media, even Fox, really going after him and scrutinizing his record. From what I've been able to find out, his Silver Star and one or two of his Purple Hearts are at least 'suspect' and I don't see any discussion about this in the mainstream media.

I remember in '96 when candidate Bob Dole said he wasn't sure if smoking is addictive. Well, the word "addictive" has a specific medical meaning and I'm still not sure if smoking/tobacco/nicotine falls precisely into it. However, the press hounded him on it until he recanted.
rolleyes.gif


Is that fair?
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Democracies need good information in order to work. The media doesn't seem interested in providing the public with information, however. Half the time they want to entertain, the other half is spent pushing a "progressive" agenda. That's just not good enough.

Bush's service record is a little short of 'heroic' ... but I just don't see it as a negative ... especially when he was fairly young at the time. I know plenty of people who were at least semi-screw-ups in their late teens, early twenties but turned out fine a decade or more later.

The point should (and hopefully will) be made that John F. Kerry has made a career out of bad-mouthing and de-funding the armed forces ever since he got out of the Navy ... and for that he needs to be held accountable.
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--- Bror Jace
 
Try reading original sources, and draw your own conclusions instead of relying on opinion spun only to re-elect a creep:

http://www.glcq.com/bush_at_arpc1.htm#_Bush's_Service_Requirements

Saying that it "doesn't matter what happened 30-years ago" is a slap at those who did answer the call. Not to mention a profoundly ignorant view of history and of societal cohesion.

As to Kerrys' criticisms of the time? While I am no fan, he at least had the guts to state publicly why he found fault with a war in which we should never have been in, and, as to criticizing American soldiers there has not been a war yet in which soldiers did not deserve criticism and correction. For us, it was the village of My Lai, the Phoenix Program, and too many other policies and instances.

Today it is Abu Ghraib. A just war fought for just reasons tends not to have these problems.
Put soldiers in a lousy, unclear situation and bad things will happen.

The entire point of justice to is bring to the bar miscreant behavior and address it through adverse consequences, unless, of course, you approve of law only applying to the "powerless".

(But no justice for Georgie. The pattern of being bailed out by others is lifelong. And he has been the willing servant of Corporate America and the richest 1% with policies that screw the rest of us. An awfully handy guy to bail out, the return-on-investment is phenomenal.)

Try reading up on the Alternative Minimum Tax that will place families making $50k to $500k into the ones that will support these tax shenanigans over the next few years, let us know if you and yours will be "better off" in a few more years. Lowered or cancelled deductions, no inflationary offset, etc.

Policy is what matters, and every President from Reagan onwards has allowed the few to increasingly dominate the many. Bush is way beyond the pale, and has to go.

[ July 28, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: TheTanSedan ]
 
quote:

he at least had the guts to state publicly why he found fault with a war in which we should never have been in

If he is so proud of these statements accusing US soldiers of being criminals, he should consider running the tape on the big TV screen at the convention. Any bets on that?

quote:

Put soldiers in a lousy, unclear situation and bad things will happen.

That is the definition of war.

quote:

A just war fought for just reasons tends not to have these problems.

If you wish I can run through the many, many instances of "war crimes" committed by US and allied servicemen in WW2, the "good war." I wonder if 'Big Russ' saw anybody cooking Japanese skulls in the galley to get all the meat off so they could be kept as souvenirs. Hmm. But that has nothing to do with the war being just or not.

I don't need spin to figure out who the is the real creep running for office.
 
quote:

Originally posted by TheTanSedan:
Try reading original sources, and draw your own conclusions instead of relying on opinion spun only to re-elect a creep:
http://www.glcq.com/bush_at_arpc1.htm#_Bush's_Service_Requirements


Just maybe a web site with the heading "DESERTER - THE STORY OF GEORGE W. BUSH AFTER HE QUIT THE TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD" isn't interested in a rational look at the issue.

For a contrary view:

Bush and National Guard - case closed

"Lt. Bush is an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer."

"an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot who continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further."

"clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot."

"a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership."

"The controversy over Bush's service centers on what his critics call 'the period in question,' that is, the time from May 1972 until May 1973. What is not mentioned as often is that that period was in fact Bush's fifth year in the Guard, one that followed four years of often intense service."

"A number of Guard members at the base say they do not remember seeing Bush among the roughly 900 men who served there during that time, another member, a retired lieutenant named John Calhoun, says he remembers seeing Bush at the base several times."

"The records indicate that, despite his move to Alabama, Bush met his obligation to the Guard in the 1972-73 year."

Keith.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Pitbull:
WRONG - It's around $150,000 per year.

If you think JFKerry can fund his schemes by only raising taxes on the above $150K "evil rich", you will be in for a nasty surprise if he is elected.

By the way, did JFKerry say that $150K is the crossover from "downtrodden worker" to "evil rich"? It is usually really difficult to pin down a liberal and get an actual income level that they intend to punish.

Keith.
 
"If you think JFKerry can fund his schemes by only raising taxes on the above $150K 'evil rich', you will be in for a nasty surprise if he is elected."

Exactly. A long time ago in this country we decided that it was OK for the rich to be burdened with more than their fair share of the tax load ... in order to pay for programs to help those less fortunate (the poor).

However years later, the liberals are trying to sell the idea that the rich can pay for the rich AND give all sorts of freebies for the middle class.
rolleyes.gif


Bottom line: There aren't enough rich people to pay for everyone else's free ride.
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--- Bror Jace
 
Interesting reading about "W" and the TXANG (Texas Air National Guard) not knowing of his wearabouts for a year. Wasnt he in the Alabama Air National Guard during this time? Do the "National Guards" from Texas and Alabama not communicate?

Either way, does not matter. The early 70's were not good times for Bush OR Kerry. Did Clinton also have his "but I didn't inhale" episode during this time also? What these guys did 30-35 years ago shouldnt have much bearing on today. It didnt hurt Clinton. Did they have good intentions, but get derailed somewhere? Probably.

Clinton was not in the service, went to school in England, and smoked funny cigarettes.

Kerry was in the service, then turned his back on his fellow Veterans, by calling them baby killers, and threw medals over the fence at the white house. Eventually became a Mass. senator.

Bush served in the National guard, appeared to be a decent fighter pilot at a time when the war was winding down and there were more pilots than planes. Then someone pulled some strings so he could help reelect a congressman, shortly before finishing his "Guard" stint. Then had problems with alcohol. Overcame those problems and became a successful businessman, respected Governor, and misunderstood president.

Which of these three is the worst, or for that matter, the best? That is up to each and every one of us. Nothing said here will change anyones mind. We already, ourselves, are committed. If not, maybe we should all vote for Nader. He has not had too many problems, other than the Corvair issue in the mid sixties. But what has Bush, Kerry, or Nader done for us lately. What I would really like to know is why his service record is being brought up four years after Bush's first term? Or for that matter on Kerry, years after Kerry was first elected? Also, why havent the democrats brought out Raggedy Ann Richards, who "W" beat to become governor of Texas? She could have some mud to sling. Maybe her ties to Carter are considered too close.

I am not looking to 3 more months of this on this board.
 
I will not be voting for Bush (no surprise), but primarily for reasons having nothing to do with what has been discussed here.

Forty four years ago, when JFK was running for President, detractors expressed the concern that, if he were elected, he would be under the influence of the Roman Catholic Church (he was Catholic) in setting national policies, and policies affecting all, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, would be set reflecting Roman Catholic views.

I don't think that ever happened. However, in the present Administration, the fundamentalist religious positions of a few have affected our policies on things such as stem cell research. Even Nancy Reagan is calling for an end to such prohibitions.

I don't care for the idea of our national policies being set by fundamentalist religious types whose views I do not share. If I wanted to live in a society where fundamentalist religious types had so much say in national policy, I would move to Iran.
 
Bush has been the only president under whom there has been funding for stem cell research. It never happened under Clinton or previous presidents.

More is necessary.

[ July 28, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: GROUCHO MARX ]
 
needtoknow,it seems that you are trying to blame the Senate for what you call a tax cut for the 'rich'.I think you are doing so because Republicans have the majority in the Senate.However,when you breakdown the numbers in the Senate you will find that the Republican majority is at most,2.

This is the 108th Congressional breakdown.
House of Rep. 228 Republicans,210 Democrats(including 5 delegates),one independent who is aligned with the Democrats and one vacancy.

The Senate has 51 Republicans,48 Democrats and one independent,who is aligned with the Democrats.Link to the preceding information. http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RS21379.pdf

Below are excerpts from the link you provided in your post.

" The Senate ...."

The Senate has almost as many Democrats as it does Republicans.I don't think that the Republicans are entirely responsible for the tax cuts.Democrats seem to have went along too.What is wrong is that the tax cuts helped to stimulate the economy and now the Democrats are worried.They are now bashing the tax cuts and trying to bring up the class warfare bit that they are so good at.

The writer in one post writes:

" Instead, give reductions to those who both need and will spend the money gained. Enact a Social Security tax "holiday" or give a flat-sum rebate to people with low incomes. Putting $1,000 in the pockets of 310,000 families with urgent needs is going to provide far more stimulus to the economy than putting the same $310 million in my pockets ."


He continues by saying:

" When you listen to tax-cut rhetoric, remember that giving one class of taxpayer a "break" requires -- now or down the line -- that an equivalent burden be imposed on other parties. In other words, if I get a break, someone else pays ."

In the above quote,the writer,which you seem to agree with,contradicts himself.He says:

" Instead, give reductions to those who both need and will spend the money gained. Enact a Social Security tax "holiday" or give a flat-sum rebate to people with low incomes ".
He then turns around and says:

" remember that giving one class of taxpayer a "break" requires -- now or down the line -- that an equivalent burden be imposed on other parties ."

Now,I may not be an economist but I do have enough education to realize that the writer is saying that it is bad to give tax breaks while at the same time he is saying give rebates to people.Now,if a rebate or whatever someone wants to call it is given,regardless of whether it is a tax reduction or a rebate,will it not have to be paid for somewhere?
I know that some will say that a rebate is a one time thing and would not cost as much,however, a tax cut is much more beneficial than a 'one' time rebate.
With a tax cut,people have more money to spend the way they see fit.They have this money each week,not just one time.In turn,when people have more money,the more they spend,this is common knowledge.

I may be wrong but isn't the idea of giving rebates similar to giving a tax break?
If you are going to have to as the writer says:

" giving one class of taxpayer a "break" requires -- now or down the line -- that an equivalent burden be imposed on other parties ."

Then why not just give people a tax break and let them spend the income they earn the way they see fit? If it is going to have to be paid back to begin with,at least let those that have worked and paid taxes get a tax break and do with their money as they want.

As I said,the more money that a person has,the more they spend.
The more a person spends,the more jobs that are created.The more jobs that are created,the larger the tax base.The larger the tax base,the more income the government has.
As I said,I am not an economist but this is plain old common sense.
If we go back to the Carter years,we can see that high taxes Do Not help the economy.Since we can see that high taxes Did Not help then,why do some think they will help Now ?
It just doesn't make any sense.

[ July 28, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: motorguy222 ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX:
Bush has been the only president under whom there has been funding for stem cell research. It never happened under Clinton or previous presidents.

More is necessary.


============
A good reason why it was not funded under Clinton is that the science only began to develop late in his second term, and by the summer of 2000 it began to be politicized. Here is a web site with some time line:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/res_stem3.htm


So it was not that Clinton did not fund it as a deliberate decision.....rather, when he was in office, there was nothing yet to fund.
 
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