Japanese vs American cars
- Thread starter skip029
- Start date
- Status
Let's not mix up union vs non-union, safe vs unsafe work environment, foreign vs domestic brand, robot made vs human made, or country of origin.
They are very very different things.
Regina died because of poor work place safety, and someone has to go to jail for neglect like that. Sadly in a pro business, small government environment, it has to take a few of these death, ambulance chasing lawyers, and bean counters at the insurance companies to force businesses to do the cost effective things.
Regarding to jobs, the future is automated and no matter where the cars are made, the majority of our parents manufacturing jobs are gone. Automation is the main reason manufacturing is back in the US, so it is not going to bring back most of the jobs that got offshore decades ago.
They are very very different things.
Regina died because of poor work place safety, and someone has to go to jail for neglect like that. Sadly in a pro business, small government environment, it has to take a few of these death, ambulance chasing lawyers, and bean counters at the insurance companies to force businesses to do the cost effective things.
Regarding to jobs, the future is automated and no matter where the cars are made, the majority of our parents manufacturing jobs are gone. Automation is the main reason manufacturing is back in the US, so it is not going to bring back most of the jobs that got offshore decades ago.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: madRiver
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Link
This is what happens when you replace decent union jobs with "race to the bottom" jobs. As I have always said, Buy American! Support your own industries. But I know even with this knowledge, there still be people who just don't care about anyone but #1 and continue to buy this slapped-together foreign junk.
Interesting article. Supports my thoughts on why it's better for a third world country to manufacture these parts instead of doing it here hastily. Sad folks get duped into thinking manufacturing at low level is actually a paying career. Certain specialty and highly trained will remain in USA but this stuff can go.
Making parts used to be a good career.
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Link
This is what happens when you replace decent union jobs with "race to the bottom" jobs. As I have always said, Buy American! Support your own industries. But I know even with this knowledge, there still be people who just don't care about anyone but #1 and continue to buy this slapped-together foreign junk.
Interesting article. Supports my thoughts on why it's better for a third world country to manufacture these parts instead of doing it here hastily. Sad folks get duped into thinking manufacturing at low level is actually a paying career. Certain specialty and highly trained will remain in USA but this stuff can go.
Making parts used to be a good career.
Let's be honest for a second and look at the problem:
The main difference is:
- When a US car company turns a profit, stockholders are happy and the board votes to pay out multi-million bonuses to top management. It doesn't matter if the cars are produced offshore or not as long as management gets its million dollar bonus. These millions could be used to engineer better car but they end up paid out to top managers instead. They often skimp on parts and use cheaper foreign parts to maximize profits.
- By contrast Japanese executives do not receive nearly as big of bonuses. Instead Japanese car companies re-invest profits in engineering and testing. They end up with safer, better cars that cost about the same price as US cars but last longer and use better (American-made) parts.
US car companies could make cars of equal quality to Japanese companies if they adopted the same priorities. However their current priorities, to mazimize management bonuses, goes against that objective.
The main difference is:
- When a US car company turns a profit, stockholders are happy and the board votes to pay out multi-million bonuses to top management. It doesn't matter if the cars are produced offshore or not as long as management gets its million dollar bonus. These millions could be used to engineer better car but they end up paid out to top managers instead. They often skimp on parts and use cheaper foreign parts to maximize profits.
- By contrast Japanese executives do not receive nearly as big of bonuses. Instead Japanese car companies re-invest profits in engineering and testing. They end up with safer, better cars that cost about the same price as US cars but last longer and use better (American-made) parts.
US car companies could make cars of equal quality to Japanese companies if they adopted the same priorities. However their current priorities, to mazimize management bonuses, goes against that objective.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Who is Regina?
The lady who got killed by a robot in the assembly line in the link.
Who is Regina?
The lady who got killed by a robot in the assembly line in the link.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted By: DrRoughneck
Let's be honest for a second and look at the problem:
The main difference is:
- When a US car company turns a profit, stockholders are happy and the board votes to pay out multi-million bonuses to top management. It doesn't matter if the cars are produced offshore or not as long as management gets its million dollar bonus. These millions could be used to engineer better car but they end up paid out to top managers instead. They often skimp on parts and use cheaper foreign parts to maximize profits.
- By contrast Japanese executives do not receive nearly as big of bonuses. Instead Japanese car companies re-invest profits in engineering and testing. They end up with safer, better cars that cost about the same price as US cars but last longer and use better (American-made) parts.
US car companies could make cars of equal quality to Japanese companies if they adopted the same priorities. However their current priorities, to mazimize management bonuses, goes against that objective.
^This!
Very simple. And how they maximize profit in short term? Cut cost, and after cutting cost so many years, you get product like Pontiac Aztec. Chrysler LHS, Chrysler Pacifica etc.
Let's be honest for a second and look at the problem:
The main difference is:
- When a US car company turns a profit, stockholders are happy and the board votes to pay out multi-million bonuses to top management. It doesn't matter if the cars are produced offshore or not as long as management gets its million dollar bonus. These millions could be used to engineer better car but they end up paid out to top managers instead. They often skimp on parts and use cheaper foreign parts to maximize profits.
- By contrast Japanese executives do not receive nearly as big of bonuses. Instead Japanese car companies re-invest profits in engineering and testing. They end up with safer, better cars that cost about the same price as US cars but last longer and use better (American-made) parts.
US car companies could make cars of equal quality to Japanese companies if they adopted the same priorities. However their current priorities, to mazimize management bonuses, goes against that objective.
^This!
Very simple. And how they maximize profit in short term? Cut cost, and after cutting cost so many years, you get product like Pontiac Aztec. Chrysler LHS, Chrysler Pacifica etc.
A interesting side note; the Japanese automakers are quietly evolving into their own Big 3. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. Most everyone here may remember the news that Nissan had taken a large share of Mitsubishi. They own over 30% now and that will grow. Toyota has been quietly absorbing Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda and a couple of other makers. Mazda will be producing their Skyactiv engine for use in Toyota Corollas in the Mexican and South American markets. The new upcoming Toyota 86 has a Subaru boxer engine and is actually assembled by Subaru.
So check to see what's under your hood in the future.
So check to see what's under your hood in the future.
Originally Posted By: dblshock
the Japanese made better airplanes back in WWII with everything on the line for both.
Just a different design philosophy. You're probably thinking of the Mitsubishi Zero. It needed to have a certain speed and performance characteristics so they did that by not having much armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. American planes were safer, had armor behind the seat of the pilot and self sealing gas tanks. Performance suffered. So initially, the Japanese shot up a lot of American planes. Their pilots were also better, had 750 hours of flight time vs the 500 of the Americans. But after Midway when they lost a lot of their pilots and had fuel problems, the quality of their pilots declined whereas the US got better planes and pilots got better. The Zero didn't really change much during the war.
the Japanese made better airplanes back in WWII with everything on the line for both.
Just a different design philosophy. You're probably thinking of the Mitsubishi Zero. It needed to have a certain speed and performance characteristics so they did that by not having much armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. American planes were safer, had armor behind the seat of the pilot and self sealing gas tanks. Performance suffered. So initially, the Japanese shot up a lot of American planes. Their pilots were also better, had 750 hours of flight time vs the 500 of the Americans. But after Midway when they lost a lot of their pilots and had fuel problems, the quality of their pilots declined whereas the US got better planes and pilots got better. The Zero didn't really change much during the war.
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Just a different design philosophy. You're probably thinking of the Mitsubishi Zero. It needed to have a certain speed and performance characteristics so they did that by not having much armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. American planes were safer, had armor behind the seat of the pilot and self sealing gas tanks. Performance suffered. So initially, the Japanese shot up a lot of American planes. Their pilots were also better, had 750 hours of flight time vs the 500 of the Americans. But after Midway when they lost a lot of their pilots and had fuel problems, the quality of their pilots declined whereas the US got better planes and pilots got better. The Zero didn't really change much during the war.
Them there was the Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" which had wing tanks with a propensity to catch fire or explode. G4M crews referred to the plane as the "type one lighter."
Just a different design philosophy. You're probably thinking of the Mitsubishi Zero. It needed to have a certain speed and performance characteristics so they did that by not having much armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. American planes were safer, had armor behind the seat of the pilot and self sealing gas tanks. Performance suffered. So initially, the Japanese shot up a lot of American planes. Their pilots were also better, had 750 hours of flight time vs the 500 of the Americans. But after Midway when they lost a lot of their pilots and had fuel problems, the quality of their pilots declined whereas the US got better planes and pilots got better. The Zero didn't really change much during the war.
Them there was the Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" which had wing tanks with a propensity to catch fire or explode. G4M crews referred to the plane as the "type one lighter."
It wasn't just that (but you are correct), as Operation Matterhorn/Guam began in mid '44 to limit Japan's industrial ability. Japan while being stretched for resources and Midway had been the major disaster, it was not until the US's heavy firebombing did Japan's industrial capacity collapse (and then you start seeing the slapped-together items). Japan "peaked" at about the loss at Midway. That was the stop of the Japanese advance (US reaches parity), Guadalcanal (ended '43)is where the US begins superiority, and then Japanese Collapse ('44) with the arrival of B29 bombing of urban centers. US advancement really did not begin in earnest until late '43-44. Japan contracted with the loss of resources/industrial capacity. If Japan could have bombed US manufacturing centers, then maybe you would have seen some similar duct-taped Hellcats... but now, just wait 15 years and you will see some redneck with duct-tape all over his Dodge Hellcat...
Basically, Japan was losing the early war advantage in training/personnel and then was compounded by a collapse of industrial capacity. Then it was a given end-result.
Basically, Japan was losing the early war advantage in training/personnel and then was compounded by a collapse of industrial capacity. Then it was a given end-result.
the end-result was always given, imo... just a matter of when.
IF japan/germany and italy had coordinated their eforts better the USA might have abstained from war and the battle in europe might have ended in the axis' favour. If that happened, not much the USA could've done anymore, and the 2nd half of the 20th century could've looked very different. cold war between USA/Axis' for example.
IF japan/germany and italy had coordinated their eforts better the USA might have abstained from war and the battle in europe might have ended in the axis' favour. If that happened, not much the USA could've done anymore, and the 2nd half of the 20th century could've looked very different. cold war between USA/Axis' for example.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
A interesting side note; the Japanese automakers are quietly evolving into their own Big 3. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. Most everyone here may remember the news that Nissan had taken a large share of Mitsubishi. They own over 30% now and that will grow. Toyota has been quietly absorbing Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda and a couple of other makers. Mazda will be producing their Skyactiv engine for use in Toyota Corollas in the Mexican and South American markets. The new upcoming Toyota 86 has a Subaru boxer engine and is actually assembled by Subaru.
So check to see what's under your hood in the future.
Nissan is a Franco-Japanese company, and I've seen Valeo bits and pieces under the hood of Nissans, and Renaults have been more Nissan-ish. Nissan used to have a stake in Subaru, which explains even to this day similarities been the two - Daimler also has a stake in the Nissan-Renault Alliance and the new Infiniti Q30/QX30 shares its platform with the Mercedes CLA/GLA.
Toyota has taken a laisse-faire approach with Subaru - probably for the better. It would be sad if the Impreza/Legacy dropped down to the same level of numbness as the Corolla/Camry/Prius. But I'm sure pretty soon new Suzukis will be built on Toyota's new global platform instead of shared GM Daewoo ones.
A interesting side note; the Japanese automakers are quietly evolving into their own Big 3. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. Most everyone here may remember the news that Nissan had taken a large share of Mitsubishi. They own over 30% now and that will grow. Toyota has been quietly absorbing Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda and a couple of other makers. Mazda will be producing their Skyactiv engine for use in Toyota Corollas in the Mexican and South American markets. The new upcoming Toyota 86 has a Subaru boxer engine and is actually assembled by Subaru.
So check to see what's under your hood in the future.
Nissan is a Franco-Japanese company, and I've seen Valeo bits and pieces under the hood of Nissans, and Renaults have been more Nissan-ish. Nissan used to have a stake in Subaru, which explains even to this day similarities been the two - Daimler also has a stake in the Nissan-Renault Alliance and the new Infiniti Q30/QX30 shares its platform with the Mercedes CLA/GLA.
Toyota has taken a laisse-faire approach with Subaru - probably for the better. It would be sad if the Impreza/Legacy dropped down to the same level of numbness as the Corolla/Camry/Prius. But I'm sure pretty soon new Suzukis will be built on Toyota's new global platform instead of shared GM Daewoo ones.
I believe Carlos Ghosn came from Renault. There is quite a bit of mixing between Japanese and Euro automakers. Mitsubishi sells engines to Peugeot and their Outlander is rebadged for a Peugeot crossover. I think some Renault cars get Mitsu engines. Nissan and Mitsu have had a long term relationship long before Nissan made the plunge last fall.
I suppose we should call Mitsu Mitsusan?
I suppose we should call Mitsu Mitsusan?
Mitsu was in bed with Chrysler and Hyundai - the Nissan collaboration before getting absorbed into Renault-Nissan must be recent.
Originally Posted By: madRiver
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Link
This is what happens when you replace decent union jobs with "race to the bottom" jobs. As I have always said, Buy American! Support your own industries. But I know even with this knowledge, there still be people who just don't care about anyone but #1 and continue to buy this slapped-together foreign junk.
Interesting article. Supports my thoughts on why it's better for a third world country to manufacture these parts instead of doing it here hastily. Sad folks get duped into thinking manufacturing at low level is actually a paying career. Certain specialty and highly trained will remain in USA but this stuff can go.
In some parts of the USA, working a low paid factory job making parts is the best job these people can find. If supplier place an ad looking to hire at $11 an hour, there will be thousands of people lining up for 2 days waiting to get an application.
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Link
This is what happens when you replace decent union jobs with "race to the bottom" jobs. As I have always said, Buy American! Support your own industries. But I know even with this knowledge, there still be people who just don't care about anyone but #1 and continue to buy this slapped-together foreign junk.
Interesting article. Supports my thoughts on why it's better for a third world country to manufacture these parts instead of doing it here hastily. Sad folks get duped into thinking manufacturing at low level is actually a paying career. Certain specialty and highly trained will remain in USA but this stuff can go.
In some parts of the USA, working a low paid factory job making parts is the best job these people can find. If supplier place an ad looking to hire at $11 an hour, there will be thousands of people lining up for 2 days waiting to get an application.
Originally Posted By: nthach
Mitsu was in bed with Chrysler and Hyundai - the Nissan collaboration before getting absorbed into Renault-Nissan must be recent.
The Chrysler connection ended a long time ago as did the GEMA engine alliance. The plant is still operating but as I understand it the cooperation in engine design and build is not as it was.
Nissan picked up a small amount of Mitsu shares quite some time back. Mitsubishi gets their CVT's from Jatco which is Nissan owned. Last year or further back Mitsubishi was caught fudging fuel economy numbers in Japan. This involved mostly what are known as kei cars. These are very small micro cars for the Japan Domestic Market. (JDM). Their share price collapsed and Mitsu was in serious danger until Nissan came in and bought between 33-37% of the outstanding shares thus adding Mitsu to the Nissan-Renault alliance. Nissan may buy more shares in the future.
While Mitsubishi is almost a non-presence in the USA market they still have decent sales in the rest of the world, especially the emerging markets of Asia. Their plug in hybrid model of the Outlander is one of if not the top selling model of that class in Europe and Australia. Introduction in the US keeps getting pushed back for some reason and that has hurt Mitsu. It should have been in the US for the 2014 model year. I hope Nissan getting involved will help Mitsu as they are way underrated here. The current model lineup is sparse and should be expanded. Mitsu only has to look at Mazda as a prime example of a comeback.
Mitsu was in bed with Chrysler and Hyundai - the Nissan collaboration before getting absorbed into Renault-Nissan must be recent.
The Chrysler connection ended a long time ago as did the GEMA engine alliance. The plant is still operating but as I understand it the cooperation in engine design and build is not as it was.
Nissan picked up a small amount of Mitsu shares quite some time back. Mitsubishi gets their CVT's from Jatco which is Nissan owned. Last year or further back Mitsubishi was caught fudging fuel economy numbers in Japan. This involved mostly what are known as kei cars. These are very small micro cars for the Japan Domestic Market. (JDM). Their share price collapsed and Mitsu was in serious danger until Nissan came in and bought between 33-37% of the outstanding shares thus adding Mitsu to the Nissan-Renault alliance. Nissan may buy more shares in the future.
While Mitsubishi is almost a non-presence in the USA market they still have decent sales in the rest of the world, especially the emerging markets of Asia. Their plug in hybrid model of the Outlander is one of if not the top selling model of that class in Europe and Australia. Introduction in the US keeps getting pushed back for some reason and that has hurt Mitsu. It should have been in the US for the 2014 model year. I hope Nissan getting involved will help Mitsu as they are way underrated here. The current model lineup is sparse and should be expanded. Mitsu only has to look at Mazda as a prime example of a comeback.
I still think many certain items made in Japan have the highest tolerances and build quality. Their engineering isn't always as insightful or creative as other brands but they do a good job of
manufacturing. I've seen this in lots of products, from cars to razor blades(feather is best in the world). To help you compare apples to apples, it might be more insightful to only include items from the actual country of origin. For example, many Japanese name branded vehicles are currently produced in the US. Also, try to compare items in similar price brackets. It should also be mentioned that there is of course lots of variation between different companies, makes, models etc.. so any generalization is just that, a generalization.
manufacturing. I've seen this in lots of products, from cars to razor blades(feather is best in the world). To help you compare apples to apples, it might be more insightful to only include items from the actual country of origin. For example, many Japanese name branded vehicles are currently produced in the US. Also, try to compare items in similar price brackets. It should also be mentioned that there is of course lots of variation between different companies, makes, models etc.. so any generalization is just that, a generalization.
Originally Posted By: maintenanceMan
I still think many certain items made in Japan have the highest tolerances and build quality. Their engineering isn't always as insightful or creative as other brands but they do a good job of
manufacturing. I've seen this in lots of products, from cars to razor blades(feather is best in the world). To help you compare apples to apples, it might be more insightful to only include items from the actual country of origin. For example, many Japanese name branded vehicles are currently produced in the US. Also, try to compare items in similar price brackets. It should also be mentioned that there is of course lots of variation between different companies, makes, models etc.. so any generalization is just that, a generalization.
I've owned many Toyotas (85 MR2--97 Camry--08 Tacoma--11 Tacoma--07 Prius--00 4Runner). My wife drives an 07 4Runner.
All of these cars have been dead reliable. The MR2 and Camry I drove until their unfortunate neglected deaths.
I will say the build quality of the Japanese manufactured vehicles was definitely superior to the US models.
My 00 4Runner has less interior rattles at 195k than the 08 (NUMMI) or 11 Tacoma (Texas) did at 50k when I sold it. My wifes 07 4Runner with 130k is dead silent and drives like a new car. The Prius was dead silent on the interior with 80k or so miles.
I still think many certain items made in Japan have the highest tolerances and build quality. Their engineering isn't always as insightful or creative as other brands but they do a good job of
manufacturing. I've seen this in lots of products, from cars to razor blades(feather is best in the world). To help you compare apples to apples, it might be more insightful to only include items from the actual country of origin. For example, many Japanese name branded vehicles are currently produced in the US. Also, try to compare items in similar price brackets. It should also be mentioned that there is of course lots of variation between different companies, makes, models etc.. so any generalization is just that, a generalization.
I've owned many Toyotas (85 MR2--97 Camry--08 Tacoma--11 Tacoma--07 Prius--00 4Runner). My wife drives an 07 4Runner.
All of these cars have been dead reliable. The MR2 and Camry I drove until their unfortunate neglected deaths.
I will say the build quality of the Japanese manufactured vehicles was definitely superior to the US models.
My 00 4Runner has less interior rattles at 195k than the 08 (NUMMI) or 11 Tacoma (Texas) did at 50k when I sold it. My wifes 07 4Runner with 130k is dead silent and drives like a new car. The Prius was dead silent on the interior with 80k or so miles.
- Status
