Is Nvidia the new 3DFX?

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For those of you who aren't exactly computer savvy, if you are using an operating system with a graphical interface (read: all of them), then you are currently using a graphics card.

A graphics card (also referred to as a VGA accelerator by some people, or just VGA card) is a piece of silicon with a single purpose: To display what you currently see on your screen. Their methods are widely varied, and in the DOS era, they were rarely standardized. Back in the days of the ISA system bus (the precursor to PCI, AGP, and PCI-E), graphics acclerators had pretty terrible performance and were really expensive. Not only that, but they were necessary. Anyone who wanted to play some DOOM or Turok had to have one, and so came the first big graphics companies.

More than 10 years ago, there was a graphics card company called 3dfx.
They were amazing and several years ahead of their time, developing technologies such as SLI (scan leave interface, a technology that allowed the use of multiple graphics cards per computer, thus improving 3d performance) and power saving features that weren't seen from the competition for years, most of their entries into the market blowing the competition out of the water. Keep in mind that they first rose to power when 2mb of on-board video memory was almost superfluous.

However, due to rampant mis-management, bad spending, competition from the then brand new Geforce 2 and Geforce 3 cards from the rising star Nvidia, 3dfx failed. Three days before they were slated to release what was supposed to be their live-saver, the Voodoo 5 series, the were sold by investors, ironically enough, to Nvidia. We don't see much of 3dfx anymore, unless you like to use multiple video cards in your computer, in which case only the faint echoes of the original SLI technology echo through your monitor.

Fast forward to today. We have two major graphic card companies, as well as two major processor manufacturers. ATI, and Nvidia. ATI was recently bought by processor manufacturer AMD when it was in dire financial straits, giving it the budget it needed to finally start to succeed again. With only one misstep, the fiasco that was the 2900xt, ATI has been relatively successful lately, outselling Nvidia in key market points.

Nvidia on the other hand has formed an informal alliance with Intel (aka Chipzilla), and with their dishonest marketing strategies, (Such as "The Way It's Mean To Be Played", where they pay game development companies large sums to make their games perform better on Nvidia systems) has caused a lot of PR damage.

In 2008, as is standard, Nvidia and ATI released their new graphics cards at roughly the same time. ATI shocked the PC-enthusiasts of the world with their "HD 4870", which was more than two times more powerful than their previous entry, the 3870. The 4xxx series gpu's by ATI outsold the Nvidia gt200 cards in that round, due to their higher price performance. Nvidia has slowly been losing market share over the past year to the AMD/ATI combination.

And now we have the current generation of graphics cards.

A couple months ago ATI launched their 5 series graphics cards. The flagship 5870 once again managed to double the performance of the last series of graphics cards, and was the first Direct X11 (A standard 3d coding API proliferated by Microsoft) supporting card ever released. ATI managed to strike a hard blow against Nvidia, releasing their new, suprisingly cheap cards right at the end of the lifecycle of the gt200 cards. Because of this, ATI has gained approximately 8% of the graphics card market share in just a few months. Nvidia's new offering, the gt300, codename "Fermi" is now nowhere to be seen.

Here's the problem:

Fermi has been delayed for nearly 6 months now. Originally scheduled to come out only a month after the 5xxx series cards, it's now been pushed back to March. While there have been a couple teasing screenshots, the problems encountered by Nvidia are really telling.

One of the problems stems, not from a failing of Nvidia, but from their new production process. They've moved to the 40nm production node (meaning the average width of a logic gate on the GPU die will be no greater than 40nm), which is buggy and untested. TSMC, the company responsible for manufacturing the cards, has managed to achieve only a 2% success rating. That isn't a typo. That means that out of every 100 pieces of blank silicon TSMC is given, only 2 of them will yield successful graphics cards. Blank silicon and hafnium wafers aren't cheap, and Nvidia has supposedly squandered millions of dollars on this technology. Not only that, but Nvidia has entirely switched the architecture of their GPU, literally rebuilding it from the ground up.

The second problem is that Nvidia refuses to admit that it's failed. As a matter of fact, Nvidia was even caught faking gt300 reference cards. There have been no benchmarks released, and other than the constant delays, absolutely no sign that the Fermi cards will ever be released.

Now go back to the beginning.

3dfx found itself in exactly the same position. Mismanagement, underhanded corporate tactics, and massive delays led to the death of the company even after it had been so successful. Only one failure can lead to the death of an industry giant in a market as volatile as that of the graphics card industry. And so that leaves us thinking: If nVidia fails, who will step up to fill their place?
 
I dont know. Its interesting. I have not been up to date on this. I didnt know nVidia was have that many problems. I have bought a 9800GT card in the past for my linux desktop. Because nV cards just work in linux, with all features pretty much. It is or was apin to get an ATi working properly under linux. When I bought my new machine I bought a HD5870 since it was the only DX11 card. Im just going to run Win 7 on that, as it is my gaming machine. I have an evil combo with a Intel Core i7/X58, though.
 
Nvidia is not in an alliance with Intel. Nvidia was offered to be SOLD to Intel and Intel TURNED DOWN the offer.

Up until recently, Intel chipsets only supported Crossfire; a technology developed by ATI for multiple cards to work in parallel, much like SLI (and obviously as competition for SLI). It was not until the Core-i series platform was launched that Intel chipsets officially supported both SLI and Crossfire.

And if I remember correctly, NVidia, due to legal issues with Intel, is not allowed to develop chipsets for Intel CPU's right now, putting them in an even worse position.

BTW, at the time of ATI's acquisition, both AMD and ATI had the same market value. Which is the same as NVidia. Intel is of course larger than all three combined.

AMD's success with ATI has somewhat overshadowed their biggest folly: Their failure to compete with Intel's CPU's, now spanning FOUR generations!

If I had to guess, I could see NVidia failing, with Intel buying up the resources at fire-sale prices, and AMD/ATI migrating to making platforms and CPU's and eventually pulling out of the CPU market.

We discussed this same topic in a thread about two months ago IIRC.
 
I bought a Nvidia Radeon 9250 128mb PCI card for the Dell computer I have now (about 6 years old). It lasted 3 years and failed. So I bought another 9250 256mb off ebay and now can't get it to work at all. So, I am back to the intel card that is integrated in the motherboard (64mb really secks). So I won't be buying any nvidia garbage again.
 
Originally Posted By: PT1
I bought a Nvidia Radeon 9250 128mb PCI card for the Dell computer I have now (about 6 years old). It lasted 3 years and failed. So I bought another 9250 256mb off ebay and now can't get it to work at all. So, I am back to the intel card that is integrated in the motherboard (64mb really secks). So I won't be buying any nvidia garbage again.


Radeon is ATI.

Radeon 9250:
4628d1217932420-stealth-256-mb-radeon-9250-ddr-graphics-card-stealth-256-mb-radeon-9250-ddr-graphics-card.jpg


Mind you, ATI doesn't MAKE the cards, just like NVidia doesn't make theirs. So if you had a defective card, it was not necessarily the that was at fault, but rather, may have been the manufacturer of the card itself, which could be Powercolor, ASUS, MSI, Gigabyte, Saphire.....etc.
 
I just brought 2 3dfx cards with the cable bridge to e-waste the other day. If anyone remembers that add-on.. the good ol' days!
 
Originally Posted By: EricF
I just brought 2 3dfx cards with the cable bridge to e-waste the other day. If anyone remembers that add-on.. the good ol' days!


Voodoo 2's?

Those were powerhouses in their day!
 
Interesting read.. I remember those days vaguely had a 3dfx card at one time. Usually I get ATI's and they've been good to me. Just ordered a Nvidia Geforce GT220 so will see how it turns out. 1GB of ram on the video card.. who'd of thunk it? Came along ways from the Tandy 1000SX 286.
 
I'm waiting for the new Nv Ferme to come out so I can buy more GTX2xx GPUs for around $100 and build a multi GPU computer.

I just bought a used GTX 260 216 shader for $125 shipped and right now that is the sweet spot for price/performance for Folding.

http://folding.stanford.edu/
 
Good argument for a sinking Nvidia ship. One problem.... nobody flipping cares about high end video cards anymore except the handful of people still playing games on a PC.

Face it, the desktop is dying. Laptop sales have already surpassed those of desktops and that doesn't show any sign of reversing. Who has a bigger presence in the laptop world? Considering ATI is exclusivly tied to AMD processors, of which there sinply aren't any, I'd say Nvidia does. Where is ATI's netbook and low power solution? Nvidia has Ion. Nvidia also has Tegra for system-on-a-chip applications.

Laptops and ultraportable devices. One of the fastest growing segment in technology and ATI has almost no presence.

If you buy into all the GPGPU banter, it's still a [censored]. Nvidia says Fermi will destroy all challengers. ATI already has the most powerful GPGPU product. I still can't name a single application that harnesses the power of any of these GPGPU products, making all the chest-thumping seem a bit... pointless. Even with all the delays and no real application for the supposed capabilities, the entire industry is still waiting with bated breath for Nvidia to release Fermi.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Three days before they were slated to release what was supposed to be their live-saver, the Voodoo 5 series,


This is incorrect.

The 5-series Voodoo cards made it to market. It was the V5 6000 that never did.

Here is a review of the Voodoo 5 5500:

http://www.techspot.com/reviews/hardware/voodoo5/


I had a 5500. Good card. Now, I settle for a glide wrapper if I need one.
 
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Good argument for a sinking Nvidia ship. One problem.... nobody flipping cares about high end video cards anymore except the handful of people still playing games on a PC.


You raise a good point. I was listening to a recent Leo LaPorte/Paul Thurrott podcast where they talk about this very thing. It got me thinking about my kids' PC. He LOVES to play Spore. The PC version of Spore is highly customizable, which is a huge plus.

I told the kids no more big expensive PC's to play games. An XBox with a few titles is the same cost as a PC. The Wii (which we own) plays Spore too. Dunno if it's as customizable as the PC version, but homebrew is quite cool :)

Why deal with the complexities of the PC when the kids are just as happy playing the game on a console system?

Any PC nowadays with a half-decent built-in video can handle most of the online games and stuff. The consoles hand the crux of the gaming duties. The market has changed, why fight it?
 
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Laptop sales have already surpassed those of desktops and that doesn't show any sign of reversing.


Laptops break more often than desktops. When laptops break, you might as well put them in the trash as they aren't even worth fixing. They're the perfect disposable PC. No wonder sales are up.
 
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Good argument for a sinking Nvidia ship. One problem.... nobody flipping cares about high end video cards anymore except the handful of people still playing games on a PC.


The high-end gamer market isn't growing, but it isn't shrinking either. It has never BEEN a large market, and the majority of sales by both manufacturers has always been the low and mid-level cards.

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Face it, the desktop is dying. Laptop sales have already surpassed those of desktops and that doesn't show any sign of reversing.


This is very true. And you can even get SLI in a laptop now.

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Who has a bigger presence in the laptop world?


AMD does actually.

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Considering ATI is exclusivly tied to AMD processors,


That is completely incorrect. I have sold numerous notebooks with Intel CPU's and ATI graphics. The most recent being last week.

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of which there sinply aren't any, I'd say Nvidia does.


There are AMD CPU based notebooks available from ALL major notebook manufacturers. They are typically the "less expensive" solution, the step-up being an Intel-based setup.

The higher-end notebooks come with graphics from either ATI or Nvidia, and have Intel chipsets and CPU's.

NVidia of course doesn't make CPU's, and isn't allowed to make chipsets for Intel CPU's anymore, pretty much dead-ending them at this point.

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Where is ATI's netbook and low power solution? Nvidia has Ion. Nvidia also has Tegra for system-on-a-chip applications.


And Ion has absolutely nothing on Atom. Nvidia lacks the resources to compete with Intel in this market.

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Laptops and ultraportable devices. One of the fastest growing segment in technology and ATI has almost no presence.


As I said, ATI/AMD's presence in the notebook work is much larger than NVidia's. They do not have a Netbook solution, but that market is currently Intel Atom dominated anyways.

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If you buy into all the GPGPU banter, it's still a [censored]. Nvidia says Fermi will destroy all challengers. ATI already has the most powerful GPGPU product. I still can't name a single application that harnesses the power of any of these GPGPU products,


Have you played Crysis?

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making all the chest-thumping seem a bit... pointless.


Unless you game.

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Even with all the delays and no real application for the supposed capabilities, the entire industry is still waiting with bated breath for Nvidia to release Fermi.


NVidia lost a lot of those potential customers to ATI's 5-series.

I am a long-time NVidia user (think the original Riva 128 long-time here) and after my 8800GTS, I went ATI.

Why?

I could run Crossfire on my Intel system (X38/X48/P35/P45 didn't have SLI support) and my 4890's were significantly cheaper than the comparable NVidia offering.
 
See, I switched to NVidia because of their support of open source software after years of being an ATI user. And I quit using AMD in favor of Intel because after the Athlon XP they sucked and after intel got past the P4, they were awesome.
 
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
See, I switched to NVidia because of their support of open source software after years of being an ATI user. And I quit using AMD in favor of Intel because after the Athlon XP they sucked and after intel got past the P4, they were awesome.


Comically, NVidia's Linux drivers are closed-source.

ATI had native support (for the earlier cards) right in X. Though 3D support was lacking, or poor.

ATI's current Linux closed-source drivers are, in my opinion, on-par with their NVidia counter-parts.

Though a couple of years ago, the NVidia closed-source drivers were definitely superior.
 
Nvidia still has a commanding share of the graphics pie. Here's a good collection of actual data on what people are using from one PC game company.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

As you can see, other than Nvidia, ATI, and Intel, there really aren't any options. If Nvidia was about to collapse, one of the other two would swing in and scoop it up. Would that matter? New boss, same as the old boss.

I remember my 3dfx Voodoo 2. Man, 12 MB RAM! Amazing! Nowadays I plump for ATI, for the very isolationist reason that they're Canadian, or at were until recently. Though I've used Nvidia too and don't have any beef with them.
 
I can't believe somebody took time to reply to my post point-by-point. It must have been good... or you're just an AMD fanboy.

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The high-end gamer market isn't growing, but it isn't shrinking either. It has never BEEN a large market, and the majority of sales by both manufacturers has always been the low and mid-level cards.


Which is exactly why the success of Fermi really means little to Nvidia. I also disagree that the market isn't shrinking. With the majority of recent PC games simply being ported from the XBox, there is little to stimulate the PC gaming market. These ported games don't stress graphics hardware and even mid-range cards display them at playable framerates running max detail at 1680x1050.

Now, if Fermi really does bust open GPGPU like Nvidia says it will, well...

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Have you played Crysis?{/QUOTE}

I have and anymore it remains more of a synthetic benchmark than anything else. "Will it play Crysis?" has become a general guideline for a particular machine's graphical prowess. Nobody actually plays the game, they just use it for benchmarking. I haven't played it in at least a year.

AMD does actually.


We're both wrong. Intel holds the laptop graphic solution crown with a 45% share.

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That is completely incorrect. I have sold numerous notebooks with Intel CPU's and ATI graphics. The most recent being last week.


I should have edited this. ATI is *almost* exclusive to AMD. A quick trip through Newegg will show that, yes, ATI does have graphics solutions for Intel machines, but they are of the minority when compared to Intel's own integrated graphics and Nvidia's solutions.

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And Ion has absolutely nothing on Atom. Nvidia lacks the resources to compete with Intel in this market.


Atom and Ion are not competitors. Ion is a compliment to Atom, offering a higher performance alternative to Intel's integrated graphics, be it GMA or Pinetrail. Without Atom, there is no Ion. Again, a large and growing market with no ATI or AMD presence.

I didn't intend in getting into an ATI vs. Nvidia debate. I simply was listing reasons why Nvidia isn't going anywhere. They have a significant presence across multiple platforms. All their eggs are not in the Fermi basket. Counting out Nvidia now would be like counting out Intel when the Pentium 4 was being beat up by Athlon.

If I were in the market for a video card today, I would likely pick up a 5850. Then again, my GTX260 hasn't struggled with any of the recent releases, so there's not much motivation to upgrade. I go back to the fact that many ported games, like Left 4 Dead 2 and Modern Warfare 2, will play great on mid-range hardware at max detail on any reasonable monitor resolution. At $310 for a 5850, that's 75% of the cost of an entire Xbox. To play ported games? Even less incentive to pay for expensive graphics hardware.
 
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