Is Havoline (black bottle) oil really group III?

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Maybe "base" is what I'm not understanding correctly. Isn't the base oil the one which comprises the highest percentage of the recipe? I.E. In this case, the 40 to 50 percent Solvent Refined Heavy Paraffinic? From what I'm seeing on the web, that's a group I or, a group II at best.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/oil-rheology-ii-groff-charts.41181/

The answer is no to your main question. Base oils can refer to any one group-type of oil, or refer to combinations of base oils of various Groups and viscosities that make up a weight grade. However, I know of no one today who uses a single type of base oil for his formulation.

G-MAN and others are correct in that you cannot make a 20W50 from Group III BASE OIL ALONE. It takes a combination of base oils of various viscosities and VII's to make a specific weight grade.

There are literally hunfreds of combinations of various base oils and respective viscosities that can comprise any weight grade (viscosity or viscosity spread) of oil.

In our former 20W50 (alchy) Partial SYnthetic racing oils, we used base oils of PAO's, Esters, and Group II oils, with the Group II's as majority, PAO's as second percentages, and Esters as teriary base oils. The PAO was actually a mix of three different viscositties of various PAO's. We used no VII's.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
If you could make conventional 20w50 out of Group 1, why use Group III?


For racing I see no reason to do such.

If you were to hypothetically make this weight for a daily driver, you would use GIII to improve oxidation stability and low temp viscosity.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Thanks for the clarification.

So "base" oil doesn't necessarily mean that that particular oil composes most of the quart bottle's contents. I hope I'm understanding this correctly.

What is the term you would use for the oil which does comprise most of the recipe?

I'm glad to get the confirmation that the LC 20W50 did have petroleum bases in it. The used oil analysis on a Harley Twin Cam engine is on the board here, and it looks great using that oil.

The Havoline 20W50 that started this discussion shows on the MSDS that it's main component is Hydrotreated Heavy Paraffinic Distillate. CAS# 64742-54-7 This comprises 75 to 90 percent of the total volume, if I'm reading the MSDS correctly.http://www.equivashellmsds.com/getsinglemsds.asp?ID=191173

Is Hydrotreated Heavy Paraffinic a group I, II, or III oil? Or could it be any of these?

Dan

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
The Havoline 20W50 that started this discussion shows on the MSDS that it's main component is Hydrotreated Heavy Paraffinic Distillate. CAS# 64742-54-7 This comprises 75 to 90 percent of the total volume, if I'm reading the MSDS correctly.http://www.equivashellmsds.com/getsinglemsds.asp?ID=191173

Is Hydrotreated Heavy Paraffinic a group I, II, or III oil? Or could it be any of these?


That CAS# can be either Group II or Group III. In this case it's Group II because you can't make a 20w50 from 75-90% Group III and 5-10% Group I (which is the other base oil listed in the Havoline MSDS), even if the Group I were Bright Stock (which this isn't).

 

[G-MAN]

BTW, that MSDS is not for the current Havoline and is ancient. That sheet is from back when Shell owned the Texaco brand. You need to find the current Chevron/Havoline MSDS here:

https://www.cbest.chevron.com/msdsServer/controller?module=com.chevron.lubes.msds.bus.BusMSDSList

 

[fuel tanker man]

I saw that... but the contents seemed the same, and I couldn't get a direct link to that page.

 

[fuel tanker man]

here's a more modern MSDS direct link...

http://www.texaco.com/yourcar/depositshield/havoline_msds.pdf

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
What is the term you would use for the oil which does comprise most of the recipe?


I assume you mean to ask, "what term would you use for the 'base oil' that comprises the majority of the base oil mix?"

The majority or primary base oil. Then you would have secondary, tertiary, etc oils in the mix.

The total recipe of base oils and additives would be called the formulation .

The MSDS doesn't tell you the formulation.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Too much focus on base oil here, there is.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Too much focus on base oil here, there is.


Probably. But that's my fault. I think what we've concluded here is that Havoline 20W50 must have a primary base of group II (since the MSDS rules out group I). How much, if any group III oil is in the mix is anyone's guess since you can't tell from the MSDS. I'll still try to contact Havoline when I get the chance but I'm guessing they'll not tell me the breakdown of base oils beyond what the MDSD says.

I would think that the Havoline's excellent performance in my motorcycle is owning much to the very high quality base (they say hydrotreated) oil. That would appear to put it a notch above the Brad Penn, which according to the MSDS is using a group I primary base. For more than 5 bucks a quart, that's a raw deal compared to the Havoline.

The LC posted used oil analysis of the Specialty Formulations 20W50, linked here... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post736482
is equal to the spectacular results I have been getting from Havoline 20W50. It is good to know that the Specialty Formulations oil used a petroleum base, as this fact had been disputed in times past.

As many of you know, I'm a strong advocate of petroleum conventional oil. I think that the petroleum content brings some attributes to the oil that group IV and V's miss out on, and this seems to show up in higher copper counts, which in a Harley Davidson engine without an oil cooler (the norm) means bearing wear.

In a used oil analysis, the wear metal count is king. If the oil looks whipped, but still controlled metal counts extremely well, the oil did a great job. If the oil looks great, but wear metals are on the high side, the oil isn't working as well as it might.

Thanks for all the help...

Dan

 

[jarvk22]

Dan : 20w50 and 10w40 Havoline are G-II basestocks what makes Havoline so good is it's addtive package. I would use Havoline over Brad Penn anyday , my close second choice would be Valvoline VR-1 Racing Formula.

 

[fuel tanker man]

I have a great UOA posted using Valvoline VR1 (2 qts 20W50, 1 qt 60 wt) in the motorcycle forum. It did very well...

Dan