Is Havoline (black bottle) oil really group III?

[fuel tanker man]

And what about the 20W50 version?

We were discussing this elsewhere on the board and while I've been given to understand that Havoline is using group III base oils for their standard black bottle car oils, I couldn't find any confirmation of that with a quick search of the 'net.

Specifically, we were reviewing the likelihood (or unlikelihood) that the 20W50 weight of the standard Havoline car oil is actually a group III base. It was mentioned that a 20W50 oil cannot be made using a group III base--at least not to the extent that the finished product could be called a group III based oil.

Of course there are generally other oil groups in any formula of motor oil, as add pack carriers... but I'm talking about the Havoline 20W50 BASE oil--is it, or is it not, group III?

I was thinking there were several group III base 20W50's out there. Am I wrong?

Dan

 

[Turk]

Hey thanks for not hijacking my Harley purchase thread anymore with this question...

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
I was thinking there were several group III base 20W50's out there. Am I wrong?


Yes. Group III base oil is only made in a narrow viscosity range, roughly 5 to 8 cst. You cannot make a 20w50 that meets current SM specs from a base oil blend comprised solely of 5 to 8 cst basestocks. Something else has to be in the base oil blend with a higher viscosity. That's why Castrol Syntec 20w50 is made from a cocktail of Group III, IV and V.

As for Havoline, I seriously doubt Chevron would use the much more expensive Group III when their excellent Group II and II+ basestocks are more than adequate to meet current GF4 requirements for finished PCMOs.

 

[rshaw125]

Its good stuff regardless of the exact chemistry.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Its good stuff regardless of the exact chemistry.


Agreed...

But G-Man, with all due respect, you're the one who gave me the anecdotal information, with no documentation. That's why I wanted to ask some others who frequent this forum what they know about group III and whether or not the supposed group III 20W50 oils on the market really are such.

We need to look at some credible data, rather than just relying on the words of fellow members of the forum.

Dan

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Its good stuff regardless of the exact chemistry.


Agreed...

But G-Man, with all due respect, you're the one who gave me the anecdotal information, with no documentation. That's why I wanted to ask some others who frequent this forum what they know about group III and whether or not the supposed group III 20W50 oils on the market really are such.

We need to look at some credible data, rather than just relying on the words of fellow members of the forum.

Dan


Where is your credible data that it's Group III?

 

[buster]

Havoline was always Grp II+ AFAIK.

 

[fuel tanker man]

I know the info is hard to find... I've been looking for it myself, with some difficulty...

(Realize, that the debate has moved to the question "Can you make 20W50 motor oil using a group III base?" The question as to whether Havoline 20W50 is group III can be set aside until someone can contact Havoline for fresh information).

On the following page, we find this quote: ChemTech SAE 20W50Cy is blended from the finest quality Group III and synthetic base fluids available. Here's the link: http://www.full-synthetic.com/_mgxroot/page_10800.html

So those guys are at least leading us to believe that their 20W50 uses group III in the base, at least in some amount.

And here is a link to a page where they discuss this forum (BITOG), and the fact that it has been published (presumably by a credible source) that Mobil 1 15W50 uses a group III base.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee9950a/6669

Who is the credible source here that said Mobil 1 15W50 used a group III base stock?

(If you can make 15W50 using a group III base, this would indicate that it is certainly possible that a 20W50 could also be made using a group III base)...

This site claims (fwiw) that the Brad-Penn 20W50 is blended with group III base stock.

http://www.lnengineering.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=28

So in the absence of compelling information to the contrary, I'm going to have to continue on in the notion that it is indeed possible to make 20W50 motor oil from group III base stocks. (This is not to argue that Havoline 20W50 is group III, only to assert that there has been no evidence produced up to this point in the conversation that says you can't make 20W50 using a group III base).

Dan

 

[G-MAN]

Dan, I never said you can't use Group III to make 20w50. I said you can't use it exclusively. There has to be something else in the basestock blend besides Group III. Nothing you've posted above refutes that fact.

AFTR, Brad Penn's 20w50 is made from PAO and Bright Stock; there is no Group III in it. Period. Look at the MSDS.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Here is the thread on Mobil 1 15W50 being group III...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/758067/

So again, if this is true--if Mobil 1 15W50 can be a group III base--why can't a 20W50 be based on a group III oil?

Dan

 

[fuel tanker man]

G-Man... you edited you post, didn't you? I'm pretty certain you did say that!

Forgive me if I'm wrong...

Okay.

 

[fuel tanker man]

I was pretty sure you said you can't use a group III base to make a 20W50 oil. Whatever the majority component is, that's the base--right?

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
G-Man... you edited you post, didn't you? I'm pretty certain you did say that!

Forgive me if I'm wrong...

Okay.



I edited my post to add the following: "AFTR, Brad Penn's 20w50 is made from PAO and Bright Stock; there is no Group III in it. Period. Look at the MSDS."

If you go back to our first posts on this subject in the MC forum you will see that I said Syntec 20w50 is made from a blend of Group III, IV, and V. Throughout, I have maintained that you cannot make a 20w50 from nothing but Group III.

This will be my last post on this subject. You can believe what you want.

 

[fuel tanker man]

I think we've just misunderstood each other then. I thought you meant that a 20W50 could not use a group III base stock and still be a 20W50.

I'll try to email Havoline and find out what they say is in their current 20W50 oil. If I get any response, I'll post it here.

Sorry for any misunderstanding...

Dan

 

[Audi Junkie]

If you could make conventional 20w50 out of Group 1, why use Group III?

 

[fuel tanker man]

Here is the Brad Penn 20W50 MSDS...

http://www.allzim.com/acatalog/BP20W50msds.pdf

Solvent Refined Heavy Paraffinic Distillate is what comprises the majority of this oil, in 40 to 50 percent content.

Is that "Bright Stock?" I know it's not PAO.

Maybe "base" is what I'm not understanding correctly. Isn't the base oil the one which comprises the highest percentage of the recipe? I.E. In this case, the 40 to 50 percent Solvent Refined Heavy Paraffinic? From what I'm seeing on the web, that's a group I or, a group II at best.

Is this amount of group I or II oil necessary to thicken the oil to a 20W50 viscosity?

If so, that would be in line with what you've said earlier. But if this is true, and the base oil means the oil that makes up most of the quart, then the Brad Penn is a group I or II oil.

A link I got some info from... http://www.lubeassist.com.au/?page_id=67

Someone help me out here!

Dan

 

[FZ1]

"Redneck noise,dude." Don't worry too much about what's in that "awl". Just change it out early and often.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Someone help me out here!

Bruce or Mola would tell you how they would make a 20w-50 with various base stocks. I imagine that it can be done a number of ways. I would think (that is, if one wanted to) could grab any number of "base stocks" in any mixture and/or proportion to get a desired result.

You're confusing (I think) "a base stock" as being the ONLY base stock used in the blend.

 

[Drivebelt]

I think G-Man summed up things pretty well in his first post.

Generally, there would be no reason to put Group III in a 20W-50 conventional, unless it was some sort of specialty performance oil.

From the Brad Penn 20W-50 part synthetic MSDS …

64741-88-4 …40-50% … Group I base oil
64742-01-4 … 15-25% …Bright stock (usually ~ 28.0 -35.0 cSt, also a Group I)
Synthetic … 10-20%

So the BPenn 20W-50 is mostly Group I. One likely can blend a 20W-50 from Group II base oils, the heaviest which are ~ 11.0 - 12.0 cSt. Some 20W-50's may be Group I or a blend of Group I/II. It's hard to say how many 20W-50's out there are still using Group I base oils.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
I think G-Man summed up things pretty well in his first post.

Generally, there would be no reason to put Group III in a 20W-50 conventional, unless it was some sort of specialty performance oil.

From the Brad Penn 20W-50 part synthetic MSDS …

64741-88-4 …40-50% … Group I base oil
64742-01-4 … 15-25% …Bright stock (usually ~ 28.0 -35.0 cSt, also a Group I)
Synthetic … 10-20%

So the BPenn 20W-50 is mostly Group I. One likely can blend a 20W-50 from Group II base oils, the heaviest which are ~ 11.0 - 12.0 cSt. Some 20W-50's may be Group I or a blend of Group I/II. It's hard to say how many 20W-50's out there are still using Group I base oils.


Yes, thanks for clarifying. I should have said the Brad Penn 20w50 is made with Group I (which includes a significant shot of Bright Stock) and PAO.