Is 10w30 thinner than 0w40 at 40c?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
All this conversation was part of the reason for my post.

How many people think that with Mobil 1 0w40 they are getting good cold start protection because of the "0", when in fact, they are not getting anything much different than the performance of a 10w30 for the cold start temps that most people see.

If there's an argument to use 0w20 instead of 5w20 for a 40% improvement in cold start viscosity, then isn't Mobil 1 0w40 over rated compared to Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30. Especially if our objective is to avoid wear at start up.

If start up wear is so important, wouldn't it be better to use and change something like Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30 at more frequent intervals than use Mobil 1 0w40 for less frequent ocis.


No, because they don't meet the same certs, have the same approvals or have similar HTHS values.

For the applications that require an oil meeting a number of Euro spec's, and requiring a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP, Mobil 1 0w40 DOES offer an advantage in cold start and cold temperature performance.

Your logic here is akin to the guys running house-brand 5w30 in their BMW because it is the same grade as BMW calls for. This is despite the fact that it doesn't meet LL-01 for extended drains, nor meeting the minimum HTHS of 3.5cP that the BMW oil does. And then their engines get sludged up and BMW is the devil.

You have to look beyond the grade here, there is a lot more to it than that.

 

[DinoLover]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: DinoLover
All this conversation was part of the reason for my post.

How many people think that with Mobil 1 0w40 they are getting good cold start protection because of the "0", when in fact, they are not getting anything much different than the performance of a 10w30 for the cold start temps that most people see.

If there's an argument to use 0w20 instead of 5w20 for a 40% improvement in cold start viscosity, then isn't Mobil 1 0w40 over rated compared to Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30. Especially if our objective is to avoid wear at start up.

If start up wear is so important, wouldn't it be better to use and change something like Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30 at more frequent intervals than use Mobil 1 0w40 for less frequent ocis.


No, because they don't meet the same certs, have the same approvals or have similar HTHS values.

For the applications that require an oil meeting a number of Euro spec's, and requiring a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP, Mobil 1 0w40 DOES offer an advantage in cold start and cold temperature performance.

Your logic here is akin to the guys running house-brand 5w30 in their BMW because it is the same grade as BMW calls for. This is despite the fact that it doesn't meet LL-01 for extended drains, nor meeting the minimum HTHS of 3.5cP that the BMW oil does. And then their engines get sludged up and BMW is the devil.

You have to look beyond the grade here, there is a lot more to it than that.


I know that but I did specifically state the fact that one would do more frequent oil changes with Quaker State Ultimate Durability the Mobil 1.

It is a trade off - more frequent oil changes in return for better start up wear protection.

 

[Jim Allen]

Great summation, Overkill. Again, one size, or one concept, doesn't fit all. A hyperfocus on just one element doesn't tell the whole story unless you are just comparing that one element for whatever reason.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: DinoLover
All this conversation was part of the reason for my post.

How many people think that with Mobil 1 0w40 they are getting good cold start protection because of the "0", when in fact, they are not getting anything much different than the performance of a 10w30 for the cold start temps that most people see.

If there's an argument to use 0w20 instead of 5w20 for a 40% improvement in cold start viscosity, then isn't Mobil 1 0w40 over rated compared to Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30. Especially if our objective is to avoid wear at start up.

If start up wear is so important, wouldn't it be better to use and change something like Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30 at more frequent intervals than use Mobil 1 0w40 for less frequent ocis.


No, because they don't meet the same certs, have the same approvals or have similar HTHS values.

For the applications that require an oil meeting a number of Euro spec's, and requiring a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP, Mobil 1 0w40 DOES offer an advantage in cold start and cold temperature performance.

Your logic here is akin to the guys running house-brand 5w30 in their BMW because it is the same grade as BMW calls for. This is despite the fact that it doesn't meet LL-01 for extended drains, nor meeting the minimum HTHS of 3.5cP that the BMW oil does. And then their engines get sludged up and BMW is the devil.

You have to look beyond the grade here, there is a lot more to it than that.

So, to maintain a BMW correctly you need advanced oil chemistry classes. Got it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: DinoLover
All this conversation was part of the reason for my post.

How many people think that with Mobil 1 0w40 they are getting good cold start protection because of the "0", when in fact, they are not getting anything much different than the performance of a 10w30 for the cold start temps that most people see.

If there's an argument to use 0w20 instead of 5w20 for a 40% improvement in cold start viscosity, then isn't Mobil 1 0w40 over rated compared to Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30. Especially if our objective is to avoid wear at start up.

If start up wear is so important, wouldn't it be better to use and change something like Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30 at more frequent intervals than use Mobil 1 0w40 for less frequent ocis.


No, because they don't meet the same certs, have the same approvals or have similar HTHS values.

For the applications that require an oil meeting a number of Euro spec's, and requiring a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP, Mobil 1 0w40 DOES offer an advantage in cold start and cold temperature performance.

Your logic here is akin to the guys running house-brand 5w30 in their BMW because it is the same grade as BMW calls for. This is despite the fact that it doesn't meet LL-01 for extended drains, nor meeting the minimum HTHS of 3.5cP that the BMW oil does. And then their engines get sludged up and BMW is the devil.

You have to look beyond the grade here, there is a lot more to it than that.


I know that but I did specifically state the fact that one would do more frequent oil changes with Quaker State Ultimate Durability the Mobil 1.

It is a trade off - more frequent oil changes in return for better start up wear protection.


It isn't a trade-off, because no matter how frequently you change the 10w30, it isn't ever going to have an HTHS of 3.5+cP.

Think APPLICATION here.

The only people potentially benefiting from running 10w30 over the 0w40 are those that wouldn't have needed the 0w40 in the first place

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: DinoLover
All this conversation was part of the reason for my post.

How many people think that with Mobil 1 0w40 they are getting good cold start protection because of the "0", when in fact, they are not getting anything much different than the performance of a 10w30 for the cold start temps that most people see.

If there's an argument to use 0w20 instead of 5w20 for a 40% improvement in cold start viscosity, then isn't Mobil 1 0w40 over rated compared to Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30. Especially if our objective is to avoid wear at start up.

If start up wear is so important, wouldn't it be better to use and change something like Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30 at more frequent intervals than use Mobil 1 0w40 for less frequent ocis.


No, because they don't meet the same certs, have the same approvals or have similar HTHS values.

For the applications that require an oil meeting a number of Euro spec's, and requiring a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP, Mobil 1 0w40 DOES offer an advantage in cold start and cold temperature performance.

Your logic here is akin to the guys running house-brand 5w30 in their BMW because it is the same grade as BMW calls for. This is despite the fact that it doesn't meet LL-01 for extended drains, nor meeting the minimum HTHS of 3.5cP that the BMW oil does. And then their engines get sludged up and BMW is the devil.

You have to look beyond the grade here, there is a lot more to it than that.

So, to maintain a BMW correctly you need advanced oil chemistry classes. Got it.


No, you need to run the correct oil that meets the specifications stated by BMW. It isn't rocket science so I'm not sure what you are driving at

 

[dakota99]

So regarding cold starts, 0w40 is worse than 10w30 above 32F, but better than 10w30 below 32F? At the same time, 5w30 beats both of them?

Speaking for a 30 weight application.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: dakota99
So regarding cold starts, 0w40 is worse than 10w30 above 32F, but better than 10w30 below 32F? At the same time, 5w30 beats both of them?

Speaking for a 30 weight application.


Depends on the oil

"GC", which is Castrol Syntec 0w30 is heavier than most regular 5w30/10w30 oils because of its higher HTHS.

Redline 10w30 is 70cSt @40C
Redline 5w30 is 62cSt @40C
The Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 is 63.4cSt @40C
The Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 is 57.5cSt @40C
Mobil 1 0w40 is 80cSt @40C
Delvac 1 5w40 is 102cSt @40C
Castrol 0w30 is 72cSt @40C

 

[RamFan]

Isn't this an apples to orange comparison?

I mean 0w40 will be lighter than 5w40 & 10w40. When you start crossing the at operating temperature viscosity, 0w40 vs 10w30 in this case there are too many variables which are part of the oils composition which "voids" the 0w rating of the 0w40. What I'm saying is that as long as you stay within the same viscosity at temperature then the 0w will always flow better. 0w30 will flow better than 10w30, 0w40 better than 10w40, etc. etc.

Not looking at HTHS values, purely from pour point and KV values.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: RamFan
Isn't this an apples to orange comparison?

I mean 0w40 will be lighter than 5w40 & 10w40. When you start crossing the at operating temperature viscosity, 0w40 vs 10w30 in this case there are too many variables which are part of the oils composition which "voids" the 0w rating of the 0w40. What I'm saying is that as long as you stay within the same viscosity at temperature then the 0w will always flow better. 0w30 will flow better than 10w30, 0w40 better than 10w40, etc. etc.

Not looking at HTHS values, purely from pour point and KV values.


As per what I noted above, GC 0w30 is thicker (KV) at 40C than all the 10w30's I listed

 

[RamFan]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: RamFan
Isn't this an apples to orange comparison?

I mean 0w40 will be lighter than 5w40 & 10w40. When you start crossing the at operating temperature viscosity, 0w40 vs 10w30 in this case there are too many variables which are part of the oils composition which "voids" the 0w rating of the 0w40. What I'm saying is that as long as you stay within the same viscosity at temperature then the 0w will always flow better. 0w30 will flow better than 10w30, 0w40 better than 10w40, etc. etc.

Not looking at HTHS values, purely from pour point and KV values.


As per what I noted above, GC 0w30 is thicker (KV) at 40C than all the 10w30's I listed

Right, but 40C is 104F not exactly a cold start lol. I'm curious to know what at 32F what the numbers look like.

EDIT: I guess I shouldn't say ALWAYS in my original post, there are some oils such as GC which are oddities that don't follow the normal rules.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: RamFan

Right, but 40C is 104F not exactly a cold start lol.

In Phoenix during summer, 40C is a cold start.

The subject of this thread had to do with viscosity specifically at 40C, and at that temp, some 10w30 oils can actually be thinner than 0w-40.

 

[OVERKILL]

Kinda neat though eh? I mean nobody would expect a 0w30 to be thicker than a 10w30 at what is essentially a hair above summer ambient temperature

 

[DinoLover]

Caterham, whose opinion I believe everyone respects, said the following about using 5w30 instead of Mobil 1 0w40 in another thread:

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I think so if you're not concerned about your warranty.
Any premium 5w30 synthetic will work is a conservatively driven car.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

I'd still want to make sure that whatever oil I pick has HT/HS of at least 3.5 cP.

I've yet to see any evidence that any Merc or BMW requires a heavy 30wt oil driven normally in NA.
A premium 5w30 syn' with a typical HTHSV of 3.1cP will more than satisfy the high temperature viscosity requirements.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2540632

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
Caterham, whose opinion I believe everyone respects, said the following about using 5w30 instead of Mobil 1 0w40 in another thread:

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I think so if you're not concerned about your warranty.
Any premium 5w30 synthetic will work is a conservatively driven car.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: rjacket


I'd still want to make sure that whatever oil I pick has HT/HS of at least 3.5 cP.

I've yet to see any evidence that any Merc or BMW requires a heavy 30wt oil driven normally in NA.
A premium 5w30 syn' with a typical HTHSV of 3.1cP will more than satisfy the high temperature viscosity requirements.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2540632


Yes, and because his opinion is respected, he made it a point to put in those two key disclaimers:

- If you are not concerned about your warranty
- In a conservatively driven car

So if you are out of warranty and drive like Jesus, by all means use a thinner PCMO that doesn't meet the OEM specs and change it at a shorter interval. It will be lighter on start-up than a lubricant that meets the OEM specs, but has a higher HTHS, and above freezing starting viscosity

 

[Loobed]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie

I agree! A lot of people (and even some oil companies) dislike the current system because it doesn't factor in HTHS viscosity. I can't see the public accepting a change though. The U.S. didn't accept the metric system! It would be nice to be able to tell kinematic viscosity at 0C, 100C, and HTHS by looking at the bottle.

-Dennis



The Public (me included) know very little about HTHS viscosity, so why would it matter if it was changed? Most people don't understand 5w30 -vs- 10w30.

We have been using the metric system (based on 10s) for our money for a long time.

 

[ltslimjim]

On the flip side, why wouldn't a 30 generally be thinner than a 40 at 100 degrees?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
How many people think that with Mobil 1 0w40 they are getting good cold start protection because of the "0", when in fact, they are not getting anything much different than the performance of a 10w30 for the cold start temps that most people see.


In Houston, the 0w vs. 5w. vs. even a 10w part of the oil won't matter much. However, when you're up here in the winter, one should pay attention to the number before the "w" on the bottle. We do routinely get down to temperatures where 0w and 5w MRVs are measured. VI is still important, of course, but one cannot ignore a bunch of mighty cold mornings.

 

[Gene K]

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
wait now I'm confused... how is 0w-40 thicker on a cold start than 10w30?

I thought that was tho whole point of w rating...


Cold is -40. +40C is a hot July day in Texas.

For an oversimplification think of them both as Straight 20 Weights at +40C with minimal difference.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: webfors
So for climates that rarely see below freezing, 10w30 is *not* obsolete

Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10w30 with it's 157 VI is one of the better 10w30 syn's but it still pales in comparison to Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30's 172 VI or better still Pennzoil Platinum 5w30's 177 VI. Since the 10w30 is the same price as the equally shear resistant 5w30 why would one buy it? I certainly wouldn't, and that'sv why the grade is "obsolete" at least when it comes to synthetic oil.

In my turbo application, I would choose the 10w30 over the 5w30 based on the better volatility (11.1 vs 12.3).

-Dennis


Right. And try to find me a 5w30 with an HTHS of 3.5+... and you can't include GC