Interesting: F150, 2.7L Ecoboost, PPPP, 4752 mi

[09_GXP]

My last UOA on my truck generated a lot of discussion with the shearing and wear. Since I had done a lot of towing through the summer on that sample I wanted to do a short run that had about 1/3 of the towing to see how wear results changed. I was expecting to see much better numbers but that isn't how things turned out. I'm on vacation now and will likely talk to the dealer when I get back. Any thoughts?

picture host

 

[09_GXP]

Also, the OLM counts down to a 10k mile OCI, I was at 52% left.

 

[KL31]

Definitely still shearing the oil down.
Change oil to something thicker. A3/B4 30 grade that's a heavy 30 or a light 40 grade like M1 0W40. Not sure about potassium.

52% OLM. If you went double the miles it would shear down even more. Is the engine spec'd for 20 or 30 grade oil?

 

[CT8]

Call the 1 800 number and open a claim with the customer service rep at the Ford corporation.

 

[umungus1122]

I'd like to see the results with the 10w30 version during the summer.

 

[Danh]

Your dealer may pressure-test the cooling system and interrogate the PCM to see if there's evidence of a leaky fuel injector or odd fuel trim. But if Ford is anything like Honda, they won't do much more based on a UOA.

My 2015 CRV has shown >5% fuel dilution (Polaris Labs) after 2,000 miles in 4 successive UOAs despite being almost all highway-driven and has accompanying low viscosity. The dealer did the basics and found nothing wrong. After a couple tries with Honda corporate I've been told in no uncertain terms that they will do nothing more unless I have a CEL or driveability problem. Oh, and please stop bothering us. But maybe Ford is different. Good luck with it, but manufacturers just may have a fundamental distrust of or disregard for UOAs that are available to civilians.

 

[demarpaint]

I'd be interested to find out if the dealer even entertains doing anything based on your UOA report and no symptoms or CEL. Subscribed.

 

[tig1]

Even though the oil sheared down a tad, it's better the oil sheared than oxidized. Even though the alum was 14PPM the acceptable limit is up to 30PPM. Not bad for an engine with 21K miles. As for lead, Ford doesn't use lead in their bearings, so wonder what's that about?

 

[09_GXP]

I'll definitely follow up with Ford when I get home. I'm on vacation right now so it will be a week plus until I start the conversation. The lower viscosity is not a problem by itself. The additional aluminum is pretty concerning with the lighter OCI. No idea what to think about the lead. Based on some shuddering at idle under certain driving conditions it might point to something. Based on my previous development experiences it feels like a leaky injector or a very small head gasket leak. If it was an injector I would have expected more fuel since I didn't get as hot and if it was a head gasket I would have expected it to get worse durin 20k miles.

 

[dustyroads]

Over in the diesel uoa forum, I've been talking about learning of aluminum and potassium leaching from the intercooler's brazing flux. I'm wondering if that's what you are looking at here. Maybe there's a little bit of lead in the brazing flux, too?

Detroit Diesel says that the first three oci's can show as much as 150ppm aluminum and 300 ppm of potassium. My second oci showed an increase in lead as well. Sorry to bring up a big diesel here but the info is fresh in my mind and thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: dustyroads
Over in the diesel uoa forum, I've been talking about learning of aluminum and potassium leaching from the intercooler's brazing flux. I'm wondering if that's what you are looking at here. Maybe there's a little bit of lead in the brazing flux, too?

Detroit Diesel says that the first three oci's can show as much as 150ppm aluminum and 300 ppm of potassium. My second oci showed an increase in lead as well. Sorry to bring up a big diesel here but the info is fresh in my mind and thought I'd throw it out there.


I do realize that there's no comparison between my intercooler and yours. They both accomplish the same thing but size and pressures are way different, not to mention mine spends a lot of time with high pressure within. I'm only saying that the wear metals of concern in this report sure do seem relevant to the subject of intercoolers on a new vehicle.

 

[wemay]

There have been multiple 2.7L EB UOA using 'lesser' oils that looked stellar. This doesn't appear to be an oil related problem IMO.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dustyroads
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
Over in the diesel uoa forum, I've been talking about learning of aluminum and potassium leaching from the intercooler's brazing flux. I'm wondering if that's what you are looking at here. Maybe there's a little bit of lead in the brazing flux, too?

Detroit Diesel says that the first three oci's can show as much as 150ppm aluminum and 300 ppm of potassium. My second oci showed an increase in lead as well. Sorry to bring up a big diesel here but the info is fresh in my mind and thought I'd throw it out there.


I do realize that there's no comparison between my intercooler and yours. They both accomplish the same thing but size and pressures are way different, not to mention mine spends a lot of time with high pressure within. I'm only saying that the wear metals of concern in this report sure do seem relevant to the subject of intercoolers on a new vehicle.


I think you might be onto something.

 

[09_GXP]

Originally Posted By: dustyroads
Over in the diesel uoa forum, I've been talking about learning of aluminum and potassium leaching from the intercooler's brazing flux. I'm wondering if that's what you are looking at here. Maybe there's a little bit of lead in the brazing flux, too?

Detroit Diesel says that the first three oci's can show as much as 150ppm aluminum and 300 ppm of potassium. My second oci showed an increase in lead as well. Sorry to bring up a big diesel here but the info is fresh in my mind and thought I'd throw it out there.


Hmmm... definitely something to mention and look at as a possible source. I know the flux leaching is very supplied dependent and we have t seen other 2.7L UOAs with the same results. But with a new engine it is possible some parts were dual sourced to ramp up production.

I actually spent some time in a past job working through engine issues that were caused by a certain type of flux being used. I'll have to pull up my old notes and see if anything is relevant. For reference the UOAs here were for the 3rd and 4th OCIs.

 

[09_GXP]

Originally Posted By: KL31
Definitely still shearing the oil down.
Change oil to something thicker. A3/B4 30 grade that's a heavy 30 or a light 40 grade like M1 0W40. Not sure about potassium.

52% OLM. If you went double the miles it would shear down even more. Is the engine spec'd for 20 or 30 grade oil?


Spec is 5w30 with Ford certification.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
Over in the diesel uoa forum, I've been talking about learning of aluminum and potassium leaching from the intercooler's brazing flux. I'm wondering if that's what you are looking at here. Maybe there's a little bit of lead in the brazing flux, too?

Detroit Diesel says that the first three oci's can show as much as 150ppm aluminum and 300 ppm of potassium. My second oci showed an increase in lead as well. Sorry to bring up a big diesel here but the info is fresh in my mind and thought I'd throw it out there.


Hmmm... definitely something to mention and look at as a possible source. I know the flux leaching is very supplied dependent and we have t seen other 2.7L UOAs with the same results. But with a new engine it is possible some parts were dual sourced to ramp up production.

I actually spent some time in a past job working through engine issues that were caused by a certain type of flux being used. I'll have to pull up my old notes and see if anything is relevant. For reference the UOAs here were for the 3rd and 4th OCIs.


Well, you're way ahead of me then. I only learned of leaching of the flux this past july when I did my first test of a factory fill. Would be neat to see what you find out (if you have any luck in your investigation).

Have you ever heard of lead in the brazing flux? I just wondered if that was even possible, I'm unaware of the potential for that. With my Detroit, my factory fill went about 30k miles and showed a considerable amount of aluminum and potassium but no lead. My second oci was 37k miles with a lot more aluminum, potassium and a good bit (12ppm) of lead. I do have bearings with lead in them as a potential source, though.

 

[09_GXP]

I haven't heard of lead in brazing flux but it still could be there. I know the total amount of led per vehicle is tightly regulated so I would be surprised if this is where they used it.

Random insight: usually the issue from brazing flux is a reaction with certain types of coolant that then turns it corrosive to hot aluminum such as in cylinder heads.

 

[Merkava_4]

A 2015 F-150 losing coolant ?

 

[bigt61]

Nothing there to contact Ford on IMO - the UOA is not that bad. Go a few more OCIs and check it again if you're worried, the engine will be under warranty for a long time. Lead is weird, but maybe contamination from something or bad test - I wouldn't lose sleep at this point.

 

[09_GXP]

Originally Posted By: bigt61
Nothing there to contact Ford on IMO - the UOA is not that bad. Go a few more OCIs and check it again if you're worried, the engine will be under warranty for a long time. Lead is weird, but maybe contamination from something or bad test - I wouldn't lose sleep at this point.

I'm usually firmly in the camp of nothing is wrong. But with other UOAs that are posted for this new engine this one is definitely and outlier. Even if you take out the lead none of the other metals should be this high, much less the potassium.