The 02 suburban has snappier shifts. B&M trick shift is supposed to be type F with blue dye.
I'm going to start using type F in my gm autos
- Thread starter turtlevette
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Good luck!
I'd be interested to know as a long term case study. Only problem is if the trans fails is it because it's 16 years worth of wear/tear or is it the type "F" that caused the issue?
I'm guessing it will be an improvement over what's called for so it should be ok.
I'm guessing it will be an improvement over what's called for so it should be ok.
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Originally Posted by clinebarger
Good luck!
I only ask because you are a transmission pro, but do you say this with enthusiasm, or with foreboding?
Good luck!
I only ask because you are a transmission pro, but do you say this with enthusiasm, or with foreboding?
Back when I had my Cavalier with the 3T40 I started using it as well. Did stiffen up the shifts.
Decades
Originally Posted by chainblu
Hot rodders have been doing this for many years.
Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Decades
Yes.... I've been doing it since the 90's ... and I am FOR SURE not the first!
Originally Posted by turtlevette
B&M trick shift is supposed to be type F with blue dye.
Yep, pretty much
Hot rodders have been doing this for many years.
Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Decades
Yes.... I've been doing it since the 90's ... and I am FOR SURE not the first!
Originally Posted by turtlevette
B&M trick shift is supposed to be type F with blue dye.
Yep, pretty much
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Good luck!
I only ask because you are a transmission pro, but do you say this with enthusiasm, or with foreboding?
I don't care for Type F in my drag prepped 2 speed 'Brake TH400's & I definitively wouldn't use it in a 4L60E with the spline failure issue at the Reaction Sun Shell that is aggravated with harsh 1-2 shifts. If this 4L60E has gone "soft".....It's time to diagnose a pressure issue.
If this is just an observation about Type F giving a more positive shift feel.....Yeah that's what happens! I'm guessing some Dexron was left in the system?
So this is a Dexron/Type F mixture?
Not sure if I want to get deep into this.....
*Do we discuss the 4L60E?
*Do we discuss Type F?
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Good luck!
I only ask because you are a transmission pro, but do you say this with enthusiasm, or with foreboding?
I don't care for Type F in my drag prepped 2 speed 'Brake TH400's & I definitively wouldn't use it in a 4L60E with the spline failure issue at the Reaction Sun Shell that is aggravated with harsh 1-2 shifts. If this 4L60E has gone "soft".....It's time to diagnose a pressure issue.
If this is just an observation about Type F giving a more positive shift feel.....Yeah that's what happens! I'm guessing some Dexron was left in the system?
So this is a Dexron/Type F mixture?
Not sure if I want to get deep into this.....
*Do we discuss the 4L60E?
*Do we discuss Type F?
That would be a good point right there. Doesn't go much good if more than the shifts start snapping.
Type F fluid is basic fluid with a texturing agent in it, correct?
This was because Ford units had clutch pack discs made of metal only. The fluid both grabbed and cushioned
GM and others used fiber covered clutch hardware, yes?
Am I correct?
This was because Ford units had clutch pack discs made of metal only. The fluid both grabbed and cushioned
GM and others used fiber covered clutch hardware, yes?
Am I correct?
I also remember the old racers using type F in their gm transmissions to firm up the shifts. An old th 400 won't care. Today's electronically controlled stuff....I would stick with what's recommend.
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It's your transmission. Good luck you will need it.
Originally Posted by Kira
Type F fluid is basic fluid with a texturing agent in it, correct?
This was because Ford units had clutch pack discs made of metal only. The fluid both grabbed and cushioned
GM and others used fiber covered clutch hardware, yes?
Am I correct?
I'm not a tribologist, So not much help with the frictional properties of the fluid.
While Ford made some units with Bronze Friction Plates.......The "Cruise-O-Matic/FMX" for example. Even this is NOT a hard rule as I've seen some have bronze plates & some have composite lined plates or a mixture of the two.
Their later....more contemporary units (C4/C6) used composite friction plates but still called for Type F fluid.
With that being said, Before the AOD came along......Ford dialed-in "shift feel" by using multiple dished steels in the clutch packs that act as cushions.
GM & Chrysler used Accumulators & of coarse the ATF (Type A & Dexron) itself to control shift feel.
GM did use waved core composite Intermediate friction plates in TH400 & TH425 installed in Cadillac's & Oldsmobile's to provide a softer 1-2 shift.
Type F fluid is basic fluid with a texturing agent in it, correct?
This was because Ford units had clutch pack discs made of metal only. The fluid both grabbed and cushioned
GM and others used fiber covered clutch hardware, yes?
Am I correct?
I'm not a tribologist, So not much help with the frictional properties of the fluid.
While Ford made some units with Bronze Friction Plates.......The "Cruise-O-Matic/FMX" for example. Even this is NOT a hard rule as I've seen some have bronze plates & some have composite lined plates or a mixture of the two.
Their later....more contemporary units (C4/C6) used composite friction plates but still called for Type F fluid.
With that being said, Before the AOD came along......Ford dialed-in "shift feel" by using multiple dished steels in the clutch packs that act as cushions.
GM & Chrysler used Accumulators & of coarse the ATF (Type A & Dexron) itself to control shift feel.
GM did use waved core composite Intermediate friction plates in TH400 & TH425 installed in Cadillac's & Oldsmobile's to provide a softer 1-2 shift.
Originally Posted by Chris142
I also remember the old racers using type F in their gm transmissions to firm up the shifts. An old th 400 won't care. Today's electronically controlled stuff....I would stick with what's recommend.
I like to feel the bump when it shifts. This transmission has never been that way and I can't stand it.
They calibrated these things for old ladies and that ain't right. I like the vette to chirp the right tire on moderate 1/2 shift and both on full throttle 1-2 shift.
I also remember the old racers using type F in their gm transmissions to firm up the shifts. An old th 400 won't care. Today's electronically controlled stuff....I would stick with what's recommend.
I like to feel the bump when it shifts. This transmission has never been that way and I can't stand it.
They calibrated these things for old ladies and that ain't right. I like the vette to chirp the right tire on moderate 1/2 shift and both on full throttle 1-2 shift.
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A properly engineered shift kit will give you everything you want. Friend of mine has a Grand National that will chirp pretty much every shift if you get even moderately into it.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by Kira
Type F fluid is basic fluid with a texturing agent in it, correct?
This was because Ford units had clutch pack discs made of metal only. The fluid both grabbed and cushioned
GM and others used fiber covered clutch hardware, yes?
Am I correct?
I am not sure what a "texturing" agent is.
Originally Posted by MOLEkULE
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.
One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the transmission. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.
In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.
Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and aramid fibers.
Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.
The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.
Friction materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites).
Today, composites are the norm.
Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.
This material must exhibit:
1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption
2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.
When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.
The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.
Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.
The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.
I bring this up because of the above list of ATF Friction Modifiers:
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.
The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.
Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.
For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
Type F fluid is basic fluid with a texturing agent in it, correct?
This was because Ford units had clutch pack discs made of metal only. The fluid both grabbed and cushioned
GM and others used fiber covered clutch hardware, yes?
Am I correct?
I am not sure what a "texturing" agent is.
Originally Posted by MOLEkULE
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.
One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the transmission. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.
In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.
Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and aramid fibers.
Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.
The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.
Friction materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites).
Today, composites are the norm.
Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.
This material must exhibit:
1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption
2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.
When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.
The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.
Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.
The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.
I bring this up because of the above list of ATF Friction Modifiers:
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.
The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.
Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.
For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
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Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
A properly engineered shift kit will give you everything you want. Friend of mine has a Grand National that will chirp pretty much every shift if you get even moderately into it.
My vette has a bunch of trick parts but I wanted it to shift even harder. People who don't want to invest the time and or money into transmission mods can get a little bit of firmness by just changing the fluid. Why not, especially if you're changing the fluid anyway.
The type f is also helping the electronic based transmission shift harder since I'm not sure how to reprogram it.
A properly engineered shift kit will give you everything you want. Friend of mine has a Grand National that will chirp pretty much every shift if you get even moderately into it.
My vette has a bunch of trick parts but I wanted it to shift even harder. People who don't want to invest the time and or money into transmission mods can get a little bit of firmness by just changing the fluid. Why not, especially if you're changing the fluid anyway.
The type f is also helping the electronic based transmission shift harder since I'm not sure how to reprogram it.
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