Ideas for ventless fireplace insert?

[Hokiefyd]

This is similar to another thread, but I didn't want to hijack that one. We moved, this summer, into a house built in 1996. At the time it was built, the ventless gas inserts were extremely popular. It has the "doghouse" fireplace bump-out commonly seen on homes built during this timeframe. There's no flue or chimney -- just a constructed bump-out in which the insert lives. This is not our house, but we have the same type of bump-out:

The pilot is difficult on ours to night, though I think the thermocouple works. We honestly haven't used it at all (except for during our pre-purchase walk-through) because I don't care for such a ventless system running in the house. I've since read that these types of systems are generally no longer installed and, in some cases, are not even allowed in new construction code. In either case, we're looking at options.

I know I can convert it to a direct-vent insert. This effectively closes off the fireplace system from the room and uses outside air for intake and exhausts all air to the outside as well. These are convenient (push the remote and they turn on), but a retrofit will likely be in the $5000-8000 range, depending on the model we get.

I'm also considering wood pellet stoves and/or inserts. These are tremendously popular around here. For this solution, though, wouldn't we have to have a flue constructed? The wood pellet systems themselves aren't all that expensive (sub $2000), but we're not sure if it's really feasible given the construction of what we have.

We don't want anything electric, since the idea is to be able to produce heat in the event of an electrical failure. From this regard (staying on-line in the event of utility failure), a wood pellet stove is most appealing (what if you don't have natural gas, either), but we're still not sure if it's feasible.

Any ideas for conversion of our existing ventless system? I imagine this has got to be a common thing (what to do with these ventless inserts as they age out of working right), but I can't seem to find a whole lot of information out there. I know some of you all will have some great ideas!

Thanks.

 

[NormanBuntz]

I would visit a few of your local fireplace or wood stove shops to see what the latest models are. For a wood stove or pellet stove, building a chimney may be cost prohibitive. I'm partial to wood stoves and the Avalon brand.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

I would touch base with some local fireplace/stove shops and see what they recommend for your area and fuel availability. I would think that since a lot of people are apparently converting those, the fireplace shops that deal with it would have a good idea of what does and does not work and what local code says you can do.

I'm not fond of wood-the amount of work and expense involved doesn't justify any savings (in my opinion). Here locally there are a few folks that have a biomass stove-corn is cheap and readily available direct from local farmers (those who hate the food-for-fuel thing may get their panties in a twist over that). For the up front cost of most of those systems (including installation) I can purchase 3 or 4 years worth of propane, so in my opinion they aren't worth it. If I were building from scratch and didn't want to install a whole house generator, I'd consider a biomass system for emergency heat. With corn there are also storage issues-unless it's in containers, mice love it and will gnaw through bags to get it. The fuel also has to be kept dry, which means dedicating space inside to store the fuel.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Thanks, guys. It looks like most wood pellet solutions involve some amount of electricity to run the auger. Some smaller units can be run off DC battery, but most appear designed to be wired to the house. That solution doesn't address part of my motivation with this, which is to be able to heat the home in the event of power failure. Long-term power outages aren't all that common here, but it's one of my priorities, if I'm already going to spend the money to convert this fireplace into something else.

It appears that wood pellet stoves can be vented to the outside with more or less a horizontal vent...not requiring a stick-built chimney. This would definitely be our preferred route, and would be compatible with the doghouse box we already have.

http://a1stoves.com/pellet-stove-vent-c-29_102.html

I don't care for wood as a fuel for a number of reasons, but the commercial pellets are more appealing to me. I understand they're very easy to start and maintain a flame, and the pellets are much cleaner to handle and store than cut wood. We do have a sizable basement, and storage of the pellets wouldn't be a problem for us. Wood pellets are priced reasonably; as noted earlier, wood pellet stoves are incredibly popular around here. It seems like a good solution for us, except for the electrical requirement.

If a vented gas system could be done this way (using a simple external venting system, similar to the wood pellet solution linked above), that would be an option. I don't have any problems with natural gas itself; I just don't like the ventless system that's in place now. It's essentially like running the gas grille in the living room. Not ideal for us for a number of reasons. If I could more-or-less convert it to a vented gas system, that would tick most of the boxes on my checklist for this project. And, frankly, I don't really want something that's remote-controlled or all that fancy. If I could turn the gas on and light it with a match, that's my ideal system. I know they're necessarily more complicated than that for safety reasons (thermocouples, etc), but you get my drift. Simple and reliable (even old school you could say) is the name of the game for me.

The local Ace hardware is a hearth dealership and does a lot of work in that field. I'll check with them to see what they recommend.

 

[69GTX]

I've been considering something similar for a while now....converting my 1960 standard fireplace into an efficient wood-like burner/no electricity unit for emergencies. Not too keen on buying a $1500-$2000 fire place insert along with converting the flue with a stainless steel insert ($2,000 more). With the chimney in the middle of the house I have to vent straight up.

 

[Al]

Jotul Gas stove. Glass doors so you see the fire. Just use an outside aluminum or stainless chimney flu gas is not very hot. Stove is very efficient.

 

[Nate1979]

We installed a pellet stove and have been underwhelmed by the heat output compared to typical wood stove. Also pellets seem a little on the expensive side depending on the cost and availability of wood. Pellets are ~$200/ton around here.

 

[oilpsi2high]

Put a vented one in and exhaust it at the bumpout.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: oilpsi2high
Put a vented one in and exhaust it at the bumpout.


Can I retrofit a horizontal type vent on these? I was assuming that I'd have to do a full height chimney flue for something like that. I hope to be able to talk to the hearth guys at Ace tomorrow at lunch.

 

[SHOZ]

I have a ventless heater but they also offer a through the wall direct vent models.

 

[oilpsi2high]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: oilpsi2high
Put a vented one in and exhaust it at the bumpout.


Can I retrofit a horizontal type vent on these? I was assuming that I'd have to do a full height chimney flue for something like that. I hope to be able to talk to the hearth guys at Ace tomorrow at lunch.


I think so. The fireplace store would know more. I saw on this old house where they installed a gas fireplace and vented it out of the side of the house. It was similar to how a gas dryer is vented.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Yes, direct venting (which uses a coaxial vent pipe that supplies both fresh air and conveys exhaust air) is an option but, as noted in my original post, is prohibitively expensive...on the order of $5000-8000 for a retrofit. I think they often also use a blower motor in a horizontal vent setup (or maybe direct vented units always use a blower motor, I'm not sure). Any electrical requirement is a negative for me, as part of the idea is to not be dependent upon electricity in case of power failure in the winter.

If I can use an old school vented gas log set and vent it in a similar way to a direct vented setup (with either horizontal venting or a short flue stack), that would likely be my best choice. I hope to know more tomorrow.

 

[RhondaHonda]

I think you are off on the direct vent NG insert pricing. Those inserts are $1000-2000 for a Heat n Glo and you already have gas in the area so that's the route I'd go. They don't require any power to produce heat and would be a good solution for emergencies. We have 3 in our house for the same reason you want one. Fortunately we haven't had a long power outage since we've lived here. I know they'll increase the temperatures while on in the room as long as they are turned on and the room is at a reasonable temp.

 

[Andrew1972]

I am confused about I don't want anything electric and mention of pellet stoves.

Pellet stoves involve a blower, auger and tinkering/cleaning by an owner. Also the exhaust can stain your home as they burn dirty especially if near lighter siding.

Woodstoves require a decent chimney so not sure how that could be added. However they are so dead simple and the superior backup choice for heat as they are dead simple and effective. We were lucky and had a chimney/hearth so it was easy to drop $1200 installed after energy tax credits. Wood is free as I just pick up the easy stuff power line cutters drop on side of road.

Full house generator is great however if you don't pay a company and DIY good luck getting service during a storm or outage. Not sure how cost effective they really are and mostly a luxury. You could buy a pair of portable generators (one backup) and be far ahead financially vs whole house.

 

[oilpsi2high]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Yes, direct venting (which uses a coaxial vent pipe that supplies both fresh air and conveys exhaust air) is an option but, as noted in my original post, is prohibitively expensive...on the order of $5000-8000 for a retrofit. I think they often also use a blower motor in a horizontal vent setup (or maybe direct vented units always use a blower motor, I'm not sure). Any electrical requirement is a negative for me, as part of the idea is to not be dependent upon electricity in case of power failure in the winter.

If I can use an old school vented gas log set and vent it in a similar way to a direct vented setup (with either horizontal venting or a short flue stack), that would likely be my best choice. I hope to know more tomorrow.


Electric isn't a requirement. There's a manual spark ignitor underneath the unit that allows you to light it in case of power outage.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: RhondaHonda
I think you are off on the direct vent NG insert pricing. Those inserts are $1000-2000 for a Heat n Glo and you already have gas in the area so that's the route I'd go. They don't require any power to produce heat and would be a good solution for emergencies. We have 3 in our house for the same reason you want one. Fortunately we haven't had a long power outage since we've lived here. I know they'll increase the temperatures while on in the room as long as they are turned on and the room is at a reasonable temp.
Empire Heating has some direct vent ones under $2000. Propane or Nat Gas. Only electricity needed is for the blower but it will still heat without it.

 

[Hokiefyd]

We stopped by Ace Hardware today and they had the Heatilator NDI series units. The Heatilator website said that these start at $2147, but I think Ace had about $1900 on one of them -- probably the NDI30. We would use the NDI35, which is likely more money. Their installers were not there, and the guy we talked to would not hazard a guess on installation.

http://www.heatilator.com/Products/NDI-Gas-Insert.aspx

We also went to a local independent hearth dealer, and she recommended the Napoleon GX36. I think her price on it was in the $2100-2300 range, and she said that installation is typically $500-800 on top of that, depending on the circumstances. She was very familiar with our scenario (vent free with the doghouse) and said that these cannot be safely converted to a conventional vented setup -- our only option is to use a direct vent system.

http://napoleonfireplaces.com/products/ascent-gas-fireplace-x-36-1/

I would like to go back to Ace when their installers are there to talk with someone who knows more about their models.

Do any of you have a feeling that either one of these brands has better quality or is a better value compared with the other? Ace didn't sell Napoleon and the hearth store didn't sell Heatilator, so it's sort of one or the other in this case.