HTHS for a Toyota Celica 2zz-GE engine?

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hey all, got a toyota celica with a 2zz-ge engine a little 1.8L motor.

toyota specs 5w-30 for it. however there is a lot of hths options in that range,
should i be using hths of 3.0 or 5w-30 thats closer to hths of 3.5?

on one side there is the thicker film argument for higher hths, on the other side there is the higher flow argument for the lower hths.

lower hths = more flow = more cooling?

higher hths = less flow = hotter running but thicker film strength?

which is ideal to have for this engine?
 
all the UOA I saw of this engine, only the 10w30 provided the best results but then again there wasn't enough data.

I would use xw30-xw40 whatever is the cheapest synthetic you can find, these pistons like the 1zz-fe run hot and can clog oil return holes, I have rebuilt three of these engines for clogged oil return holes and subsequent oil burning but at the rate of 1 quart per 5-6000 miles, after the rebuild, no oil loss, even after red lining this engine into the 7800-8000 rpm range.
 
thats interesting to know. i like to run oil as thin as possible without compromising wear.
but in the uk im not sure which groups oil fall into if they are group 3 or 4. group 5 is easily found since they have ester stickers all over them.

2 of the easiest and cheapest oils to obtain here are:
Shell Helix Ultra Professional AF 5w-30 costs £20 for 5L
http://www.epc.shell.com/docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_Kingdom_Shell_Helix_Ultra_Professional_AF_5W-30_(A5_B5_M2C-913D)_(en-GB)_TDS.pdf

and

Mobile super 3000 x1 FE - which can be got on offer for around £25 for 5L
http://www.mobil.co.uk/UK-English-LCW/ca...a-fe-5w30.aspx#

both are around 3.0 on the hths scale.

can get Motul 8100 Eco-Nergy 5W-30 - £30 most expensive of the 3
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/motul/8100_Eco-nergy_5W-30.pdf
which has hths of 3.4

i suspect they may all be group 3 but not sure.
any one in particular i should favour?
 
The Elise uses a 40, but other 2ZZ's use a 30.

I'd probably use Castrol 0w30, which splits the difference, being a high 30.

Although M1 AFE 0w30, as a low 30, would be good for better high-rpm driving
 
Given the issue with this engine is clogged oil return holes in the piston, I would run a heavier, higher HTHS ( about 3.5), full synthetic 5W-30 name brand oil.

Something that is rated ACEA A3/B4 ( or A3/B3) over a lighter A5/B5 (or A1/B1) oil.

Here we get full synthetic Castrol Edge A3/B4 5W-30, that's the sort of stuff I would use. But not a ILSAC GF-5 resource conserving oil, it's too light in my opinion. You Want to stop those holes from blocking.
 
Originally Posted By: slybunda
How does thicker oil prevent the holes from blocking?


I could be wrong, that's for sure, but I was attempting to follow the logic of Joe90_Guy who has stated in a few places that oil consumption, dirty pistons and stuck rings can be caused by oil volatility problems, and a thicker less volatile oil can help. It's been mentioned in a few threads, but here is one talking about stuck piston rings in a Audi. Yes, not the same car or piston / ring / hole set-up. But maybe the fundamental cause is similar and a heavier oil could help. To be honest, I would run a 40 weight oil in that car, but I suggested a thick 30 weight, because that is what the OP was asking about.


Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

However I tend to think that if Audi had, from new, used an oil will a very low volatility, and particularly one with a heavy front end, then extractive distillation of the oil in the presence of re-evaporating fuel in the sump could have been minimised and less oil would have ended up being burnt. I guess we will just never know...


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3899559/1
 
i ran a 40 weight 5w-40 shell oil for 1 week and dumped it. could feel the extra drag on the engine and friction causing engine to heat up faster.
no nice.
 
smile.gif
funny observing....

In years 2007-2008 yota in slovenia was using Mobil1/Esso ACEA C3 oil in all her vehicles...

Google hths for C3 oil...
 
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
smile.gif
funny observing....

In years 2007-2008 yota in slovenia was using Mobil1/Esso ACEA C3 oil in all her vehicles...

Google hths for C3 oil...


Yep ACEA C3 is a high HTHS oil (3.5 or above) just like a A3/B3 & A3/B4 oil. The C3 is a low/mid SAPS oil, fine for most applications that aren't low drain interval.
 
but if thicker oil flows slower then it will get hotter than become thinner and thinner oil flows faster. so end result with thicker oil is a hotter running engine?

i find it odd that in hotter climates people recommend thicker oil when the end result of it will be a hotter engine in a hotter climate?

not sure i get this..
 
Flow isn't lubrication, and remember we're using positive displacement oil pumps. When not in bypass, they pump a certain amount of oil per revolution. As for thickness, of course, there's a point where you are too thin and get metal on metal contact, and that usually isn't the regime in which you wish to be operating full time. The notion of the thicker oil in the hotter climate has been generally to prevent this (as rare as it is, anyhow), and the desire for the thinner oil in the extreme cold is fairly obvious.
 
but if the oil in a hotter climate is getting too thin then wouldnt the correct path to take be to install an oil cooler rather than run thicker oil?
 
@slybunda.......honestly.......have you ever heard about "oilcoolers".....except here on BITOG from american users.....and in manuals for WW2 era aircraft engine?
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: slybunda
but if the oil in a hotter climate is getting too thin then wouldnt the correct path to take be to install an oil cooler rather than run thicker oil?

It might be a useful approach, but a thicker oil is cheaper than retrofitting an engine oil's plumbing.

As for Europe, well, my old Audi 200 had the largest oil cooler I've ever seen on a passenger car, and it was OEM.
 
So the reason to use thicker oil in hotter climates is because thicker oil runs cooler and negates the need for oil coolers?
 
A thicker oil in a hot climate is usually (and relatively) a lot more thicker and only a little more hotter than a thin oil. You win more than you lose.

When I ran thick oils traveling through the Australian outback, it was because it gave me a greater safety margin if things got a little too hot. This was in the old days, so the cars weren't as well cooled or designed as today. The dust and air temperature had a bigger effect on temp than oil viscosity. Also before cell phones etc., so less experimenting and more playing it safe. I also carried a Jerry of spare fuel and a second Jerry of water, plus food & tools & blanket etc.

Once I blew a radiator hose on an old dirt road with no traffic. I waited to night fall and it got cool, then I drove until my car was about to overheat and I stopped to let it cool. I kept this going all night until I made it to my uncle's farm in the small hours of the morning. Gave him a bit of a shock as I left about 12 hours earlier and he wasn't expecting me back.

We fixed my car the next day, and it ran completely fine for years after that.

Oil was Penrite HPR 30, a heavy mineral 20W-60. It looked after me fine with a dry radiator and a long way from home.
 
what that doesnt explain is why thich oil is better in hotter climate?
if you run a thicker oil as you stated it will run a bit hotter in which case it will in turn run thinner due to running at a higher temperature.
i dont think i understand this correctly though, if your running a thicker oil at a higher temp then it runs thinner
so if you run a thinner oil it wont get as hot so if its running cooler its then running thicker?

so you back at square one?
 
Last edited:
Maybe this will help

Originally Posted By: Shannow


My Briggs (mower) I ran 5W20 over winter, and as I was changeing it out (was going back to SAE30), I decided to throw some 20W60 (thickest I could get within the town on a weekend, to bookend my experiment).

After mowing, at 4C 10 mins on the Governor and the 5W20 was 87C (thermocouple down the dipstick)...replaced with 20W60, and 10 minutes on the Governor had it at 97C.


Originally Posted By: Shannow

The two bookends of my Briggs temperature experiment, the 20W60 has similar KV at 135C as the 5W20 at 87C...they will have similar losses at those extremes...


Shannow did a excellent experiment with his B&S mower, running 5W20 and 20W60 flat out in under same conditions. Yes the thicker oil was 10 degC hotter, but it would have to be 48 degrees hotter to thin down to the same viscosity as the thin oil at it's operational temp.

So yes the thick oil is hotter, but still a lot thicker and will stay that way for a long time as things heat up more. All up the thick oil has a 38 degree advantage in operation, ( assuming the same VI, which probably isn't true, but I hope you get my drift).
 
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