GTL really throws a monkey wrench into the Group III is not a synthetic argument.
How to tell if an oil is Truly synthetic?
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Originally Posted By: antonmnster
It's so simple: if it's group III it's not synthetic. That's not to say it's a bad oil and can't protect your car. It can be lots of things, but calling it synthetic is just a total distortion of reality and science (something that Americans are REALLY good at but I digress).
If it's group IV+, it's actually synthetic.
Why is that so hard?
Only if you live in Germany. For those crying about Group 3 being labeled as synthetic, move to Germany. Otherwise, face the reality.
It's so simple: if it's group III it's not synthetic. That's not to say it's a bad oil and can't protect your car. It can be lots of things, but calling it synthetic is just a total distortion of reality and science (something that Americans are REALLY good at but I digress).
If it's group IV+, it's actually synthetic.
Why is that so hard?
Only if you live in Germany. For those crying about Group 3 being labeled as synthetic, move to Germany. Otherwise, face the reality.
Originally Posted By: Capa
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
It's so simple: if it's group III it's not synthetic. That's not to say it's a bad oil and can't protect your car. It can be lots of things, but calling it synthetic is just a total distortion of reality and science (something that Americans are REALLY good at but I digress).
If it's group IV+, it's actually synthetic.
Why is that so hard?
Only if you live in Germany. For those crying about Group 3 being labeled as synthetic, move to Germany. Otherwise, face the reality.
NEUN! NEUN! NEUN! We will change the labeling!
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
It's so simple: if it's group III it's not synthetic. That's not to say it's a bad oil and can't protect your car. It can be lots of things, but calling it synthetic is just a total distortion of reality and science (something that Americans are REALLY good at but I digress).
If it's group IV+, it's actually synthetic.
Why is that so hard?
Only if you live in Germany. For those crying about Group 3 being labeled as synthetic, move to Germany. Otherwise, face the reality.
NEUN! NEUN! NEUN! We will change the labeling!
Quote:
For those crying about Group 3 being labeled as synthetic, move to Germany. Otherwise, face the reality.
The only reality is you are parroting the advertising council decision not based on facts.
It has been in the best interest of oil companies to cloud this issue by misusing the word synthetic to increase profits.
While its true the performance of these products is now rivalling the true synthetics that was not always the case.
They were for many years inferior in every way but to call them synthetic and charge a premium price was like putting crack in front of a crack addict for the oil companies, they just couldn't resist.
The proof is easy to find.
Why was it the even though these oils were labelled synthetic oil companies until very recently continued to advocate 3K OCI.
They knew that a true synthetic could go 3, 4 or even 5 times that amount.
The truth is they were not offering a true synthetic oil, they knew it, most Bitog members knew it but the the average joe didn't.
The consequence was engines getting varnish and sludge even running supposedly synthetic oil.
The average joe did a google and found out that synthetics should easily be able to go 7500-10K OCI so they tried it, but their so called synthetic let them down.
Sound familiar?
IMO the only reason for the dramatic improvements in motor oil is the manufacturers are now specifying long OCI's.
As soon a GM announced the Dexos standard some oil companies howled and refused under the falsehood of having to pay GM a fee, yet the same company has no problem making a Dex approved transmission fluid.
The real issue IMO is now they would have to deliver real synthetic performance which would hit them right in the pocket.
This is my last post on this subject, i have read so many documents, briefs and studies over the years it gets overwhelming.
The consumer was not the only victim in this fraud (yes i meant to say fraud) foisted on the consumer, the companies who were in fact making true synthetic oils were injured by the low prices of these pseudo synthetics.
How many times have we heard Amsoil or Redline is too darn expensive, i can buy Supertech synthetic for 1/3 the price.
True today the performance gap is closing but so is the price gap.
Synthetics are high priced and an oil that offers similar levels of performance is going to be more expensive. Welcome to reality!
For those crying about Group 3 being labeled as synthetic, move to Germany. Otherwise, face the reality.
The only reality is you are parroting the advertising council decision not based on facts.
It has been in the best interest of oil companies to cloud this issue by misusing the word synthetic to increase profits.
While its true the performance of these products is now rivalling the true synthetics that was not always the case.
They were for many years inferior in every way but to call them synthetic and charge a premium price was like putting crack in front of a crack addict for the oil companies, they just couldn't resist.
The proof is easy to find.
Why was it the even though these oils were labelled synthetic oil companies until very recently continued to advocate 3K OCI.
They knew that a true synthetic could go 3, 4 or even 5 times that amount.
The truth is they were not offering a true synthetic oil, they knew it, most Bitog members knew it but the the average joe didn't.
The consequence was engines getting varnish and sludge even running supposedly synthetic oil.
The average joe did a google and found out that synthetics should easily be able to go 7500-10K OCI so they tried it, but their so called synthetic let them down.
Sound familiar?
IMO the only reason for the dramatic improvements in motor oil is the manufacturers are now specifying long OCI's.
As soon a GM announced the Dexos standard some oil companies howled and refused under the falsehood of having to pay GM a fee, yet the same company has no problem making a Dex approved transmission fluid.
The real issue IMO is now they would have to deliver real synthetic performance which would hit them right in the pocket.
This is my last post on this subject, i have read so many documents, briefs and studies over the years it gets overwhelming.
The consumer was not the only victim in this fraud (yes i meant to say fraud) foisted on the consumer, the companies who were in fact making true synthetic oils were injured by the low prices of these pseudo synthetics.
How many times have we heard Amsoil or Redline is too darn expensive, i can buy Supertech synthetic for 1/3 the price.
True today the performance gap is closing but so is the price gap.
Synthetics are high priced and an oil that offers similar levels of performance is going to be more expensive. Welcome to reality!
I feel your pain. I believed then and I believe now it is fraud. That is why I was surprised to learn that Amsoil has 2/3 of their product line with group III basestocks. Some have said that even the reformulated SSO has some group III in it as well. I hope not.
When you are dealing with synthetic oil imho they will be groups IV,V,or VI
When you are dealing with synthetic oil imho they will be groups IV,V,or VI
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
For those crying about Group 3 being labeled as synthetic, move to Germany. Otherwise, face the reality.
The proof is easy to find.
Why was it the even though these oils were labelled synthetic oil companies until very recently continued to advocate 3K OCI.
The only thing that proves is that they wanted to sell more oil. For various reasons, it recently became unacceptable to continue advocating such horrendous waste without damaging one's corporate social responsiblity image. Moreover, I don't ever remember any oil manufacturer advocating a 3K oci with full syn. Jiffy Lube may have advised a 3K full syn oci. However, while Jiffy Lube has clearly been a subsidary of Pennzoil for some time, they have appear to have separate marketing functions.
Quote:
For those crying about Group 3 being labeled as synthetic, move to Germany. Otherwise, face the reality.
The proof is easy to find.
Why was it the even though these oils were labelled synthetic oil companies until very recently continued to advocate 3K OCI.
The only thing that proves is that they wanted to sell more oil. For various reasons, it recently became unacceptable to continue advocating such horrendous waste without damaging one's corporate social responsiblity image. Moreover, I don't ever remember any oil manufacturer advocating a 3K oci with full syn. Jiffy Lube may have advised a 3K full syn oci. However, while Jiffy Lube has clearly been a subsidary of Pennzoil for some time, they have appear to have separate marketing functions.
Originally Posted By: BigBird57
When you are dealing with synthetic oil imho they will be groups IV,V,or VI
What's a Group VI synthetic? Posters are complaining that Group III and III+ oils are being falsely inserted into the synthetic definition, but it's okay to include a fictitious oil group in the definition?
When you are dealing with synthetic oil imho they will be groups IV,V,or VI
What's a Group VI synthetic? Posters are complaining that Group III and III+ oils are being falsely inserted into the synthetic definition, but it's okay to include a fictitious oil group in the definition?
Got a 1991 Shell product data guide, and it lists the XMO High (greatly advertised in motorsport at the time)...mineral oil with the performance of a synthetic was their statement.
It was their XHVI slack wax process, and seriously an exceptionally goo product, but they acknowledged its background, and charged less than the PAO competitors, and got customers.
Then "synthetic" became group III (which I disagree with), and all of a sudden their price went up to PAO, the advertising was "fully synthetic", and the pour points etc. of everyone elses "fully synthetics" started coming up.
Yep, real world performance is there, but the cheaper product became sold as the premium, due to the "synthetic" label, and the premium dropped to that level...consumer lost value for money, while keeping overall performance.
Currently there's over 10 degree C disparity in pour point between Mobil's 0W-40 PCMO oil, and their 15W-50 motorcycle oil...their 20W-50 Motorcycle oil comfortably beats M1 0W-40 in pour point...and it's not that the MC oils have changed in the last 10 years, it's the PCMOs becoming "cheaper" to manufacture, without the savings being passed on.
Shell nailed it years ago with "mineral based and synthetic performance"...it bought them customers, and rightly so...but the customer shared in the savings in manufacture.
It was their XHVI slack wax process, and seriously an exceptionally goo product, but they acknowledged its background, and charged less than the PAO competitors, and got customers.
Then "synthetic" became group III (which I disagree with), and all of a sudden their price went up to PAO, the advertising was "fully synthetic", and the pour points etc. of everyone elses "fully synthetics" started coming up.
Yep, real world performance is there, but the cheaper product became sold as the premium, due to the "synthetic" label, and the premium dropped to that level...consumer lost value for money, while keeping overall performance.
Currently there's over 10 degree C disparity in pour point between Mobil's 0W-40 PCMO oil, and their 15W-50 motorcycle oil...their 20W-50 Motorcycle oil comfortably beats M1 0W-40 in pour point...and it's not that the MC oils have changed in the last 10 years, it's the PCMOs becoming "cheaper" to manufacture, without the savings being passed on.
Shell nailed it years ago with "mineral based and synthetic performance"...it bought them customers, and rightly so...but the customer shared in the savings in manufacture.
Originally Posted By: Garak
What's a Group VI synthetic? Posters are complaining that Group III and III+ oils are being falsely inserted into the synthetic definition, but it's okay to include a fictitious oil group in the definition?
Fictitious ?
LOL
What's a Group VI synthetic? Posters are complaining that Group III and III+ oils are being falsely inserted into the synthetic definition, but it's okay to include a fictitious oil group in the definition?
Fictitious ?
LOL
It will taste like chicken!
At least Redline is still "synthetic".
If it were only less than $11 per quart, they could corner the market.
For those who dont use it a lot, it is very different in smell and when rubbing it between your fingers.
If it were only less than $11 per quart, they could corner the market.
For those who dont use it a lot, it is very different in smell and when rubbing it between your fingers.
I think you make a good point. The decision to use a boutique brand of oil is that you are getting something a little different from the rest of the pack. To me when they reformulate to a cheaper basestock then why would I continue to pay $9 per qt. for Group III or III+ motor oil?
But oh sir you have to look at the way it performs. Did this "SN" rating require everyone to reformulate to meet the requirement by adding Group III+?
But oh sir you have to look at the way it performs. Did this "SN" rating require everyone to reformulate to meet the requirement by adding Group III+?
Originally Posted By: BigBird57
Group VI is Europe Only (ATIEL) PIO (Poly Internal Olefins)
Also add to the mix which is not a motor oil but an industrial lubricant (PAG) Poly Alkaline Glycol Synthetic as well.
Okay, I guess it's not fictitious then. I learn something new every day. I already new about PAG based industrial lubes, but the Group VI European only stuff is new to me.
Group VI is Europe Only (ATIEL) PIO (Poly Internal Olefins)
Also add to the mix which is not a motor oil but an industrial lubricant (PAG) Poly Alkaline Glycol Synthetic as well.
Okay, I guess it's not fictitious then. I learn something new every day. I already new about PAG based industrial lubes, but the Group VI European only stuff is new to me.
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