No. EV only.
How to tax EVs
- Thread starter LavaRand
- Start date
The state would have to come up with a method of calculating expected avg miles driven per year by its citizens. Perhaps build a database using public information like Carfax which contains the odometer reading. Pull the data from various areas within the state (rural vs urban) and then factor in vehicle weight. Just spit balling here.
Why not just report it? We are so connected today, it should be a snap. Software is cheap and allows for standardization. Standards make our lives easy. Otherwise you get a bazillion systems that don't talk to each other and are fair to no one.
This is what we have here. $200 for EVs. I complain about the cost of it, but it's the least intrusive way of charging the fee. It doesn't require any form of verifying mileage and so simple I can pay it online. It's definitely too high, especially if the Feds do end up wanting the additional $250 that keeps getting mentioned. It's way too high especially when it's all added up.
It's all way too high. At $200 here it's equivalent to around 20k miles at 20 mpg which is nuts for nearly anything but a truck.
This may be the answer. Get rid of the road part of the gas tax and charge everybody at registration time. It's obviously not even trying to even it out by doing different things for different cars.
Fraud
Who controls the standard?
Ever sat on a standards committee. I have sat on two. Will never again. There more political than a school board.
Taxation is theft.
Sure, that's why there has to be teeth in the system.
If the car checks in directly I dont worry so much about fraud, I worry about errors.
Like the guys that get million dollar bills from power and water companies that no one checks before they go out then you are stuck in morass of bureaucracy without the service while you are sorting it out.
This is a complicated one... but as much as I hate it, I think eventually we're going to have to go to a mileage based fee that's reported to the government directly by the vehicle or the vehicle's mobile app. I think a fixed fee is bad, because it punishes people who don't drive much. The biggest problem is then, how do we charge people that have old cars that can't do that?
If I had to pick a method, I'd require every vehicle with data connectivity to report annual mileage, and those that didn't, would have to report it somehow. Many states already have smog tests, safety inspections, etc so the infrastructure to report mileage is mostly already there. And most insurance companies ask for odometer at least once a year anyway.
For the vehicles that aren't compatible, if we don't want to have self reporting or inspections.. maybe average is bad, perhaps "mode" would be better (the most common value)? But, I think the flat registration fees should be reduced if there is an annual mileage fee. In some states, it's like $30 to register a car... but here in CA I think I'll be paying like $500-700 next time... I would not be OK with paying $500 PLUS the annual mileage fee... but I'd be OK with paying $100 fixed fee + a reasonable annual mileage fee. I'd also maybe be OK with the fee being slightly adjusted for weight or fuel type, but it has to be reasonable. EVs aren't just for rich people anymore... heck I make under $25/hr and drive a 2025 Tesla (probably a bad financial choice, but that's beyond the point)... the point is, whatever we do, needs to not be a burden to the people that can barely afford to survive anyway.
I am glad the federal EV fee of $200 was removed the big bill. I was VERY against that. But for this all to work, we would need some federal involvement (perhaps that all vehicles sold after X year support the reporting of this data in a standardized format). As well as maybe making the annual fee schedule standardized across the country? But then make it up to the states on how they collect the data? Or maybe that doesn't work from a legal perspective... so I guess we have to make the whole program federal? But then who collects the money? Does the federal government collect the annual fee separately and then distribute it back to the state? OOF this is a TOUGH problem.
But in terms of vehicle support, I think most cars in the past decade have this. GM vehicles have OnStar that's still supported since about 2015... I think there is no official upgrade path if you have a pre-4G GM vehicle unfortunately. For Tesla I think some of their very early cars can be upgraded to 4G for $200, otherwise they all have it?
Overall a super complex topic. In short, if I had to pick a way, I'd: 1. replace ALL fuel taxes with the annual mileage fee with some variances for vehicle weight.. 2. cap registration costs so that people wouldn't be priced out of owning or driving a car. 3. automate as much of the data collection as possible since most vehicles in the past 10 years can do this over cellular anyway and have people with older cars either pay an average fee or go through a quick annual inspection?
If I had to pick a method, I'd require every vehicle with data connectivity to report annual mileage, and those that didn't, would have to report it somehow. Many states already have smog tests, safety inspections, etc so the infrastructure to report mileage is mostly already there. And most insurance companies ask for odometer at least once a year anyway.
For the vehicles that aren't compatible, if we don't want to have self reporting or inspections.. maybe average is bad, perhaps "mode" would be better (the most common value)? But, I think the flat registration fees should be reduced if there is an annual mileage fee. In some states, it's like $30 to register a car... but here in CA I think I'll be paying like $500-700 next time... I would not be OK with paying $500 PLUS the annual mileage fee... but I'd be OK with paying $100 fixed fee + a reasonable annual mileage fee. I'd also maybe be OK with the fee being slightly adjusted for weight or fuel type, but it has to be reasonable. EVs aren't just for rich people anymore... heck I make under $25/hr and drive a 2025 Tesla (probably a bad financial choice, but that's beyond the point)... the point is, whatever we do, needs to not be a burden to the people that can barely afford to survive anyway.
I am glad the federal EV fee of $200 was removed the big bill. I was VERY against that. But for this all to work, we would need some federal involvement (perhaps that all vehicles sold after X year support the reporting of this data in a standardized format). As well as maybe making the annual fee schedule standardized across the country? But then make it up to the states on how they collect the data? Or maybe that doesn't work from a legal perspective... so I guess we have to make the whole program federal? But then who collects the money? Does the federal government collect the annual fee separately and then distribute it back to the state? OOF this is a TOUGH problem.
But in terms of vehicle support, I think most cars in the past decade have this. GM vehicles have OnStar that's still supported since about 2015... I think there is no official upgrade path if you have a pre-4G GM vehicle unfortunately. For Tesla I think some of their very early cars can be upgraded to 4G for $200, otherwise they all have it?
Overall a super complex topic. In short, if I had to pick a way, I'd: 1. replace ALL fuel taxes with the annual mileage fee with some variances for vehicle weight.. 2. cap registration costs so that people wouldn't be priced out of owning or driving a car. 3. automate as much of the data collection as possible since most vehicles in the past 10 years can do this over cellular anyway and have people with older cars either pay an average fee or go through a quick annual inspection?
Against my better judgment, I will wade into this and offer an opinion.
I own a 2023 Tesla Model Y and live in Oregon.
I own a Dodge Ram with a Cummins diesel
I drove commercially for awhile and have a CDL so understand how heavy vehicles pay and if you think you pay a lot they many times more as they should.
Let's start with the commercial side. ALL commercial plates in Oregon pay a weight mile tax. It isn't based on how much the vehicle weighs, BUT on you registered GVW and then you report the miles, so lighter vehicle, fewer miles pays less. No one likes it, BUT that seems fair, you pay for what portion of the road you use. You DO NOT pay the state fuel tax in addition, with what is know as a PUC permit you are exempt at the pump.
I of course pay fuel tax for the diesel put into my pickup, currently $0.40 per gallon state tax and $0.244 per gallon federal tax. In addition some locations add a local tax, $0.02-0.10 per gallon. That works out to maybe $0.03-0.04 per mile just for use tax.
Oregon has graduated fees for vehicle registration depending on the year, EPA rating and type of fuel. These fees for two years vary from $126 to $316 with a BEV being the most expensive. So that puts the BEV at $190 more each two year registration period vs my pickup. Oregon also offers OPTIONALLY a Pay-by-Mile Program named OReGO which has a fee of $86 for two years plus the per mile rate of $0.02 per mile.
Currently either the flat fee is too low or the mileage rate is too, high, because over about 7000 miles a year costs more paying by the mile.
Nonetheless, I think eventually a weight mile charge for all vehicles probably makes sense, and by weight I mean ranges, probably all vehicles under 8000 pounds one rate, another from 8000 to 20000 or so and then you enter commercial truck territory. Everyone thinks an EV is hugely heavy and it is somewhat heavier, BUT maybe only 500 pounds for an equivalent sized vehicle to a Tesla Model Y, it isn't like they are tons heavier.
It isn't just EV's, hybrids and even ICE vehicles are getting more and more efficient, you can't sell enough fuel with taxes to pay for the roads anymore. Back when everything got 20 MPG or less fuel tax was probably sufficient, especially going back to when fuel taxes were implemented, all vehicles used about the same fuel per mile, now it is totally antiquated way of revenue for infrastructure.
We can have additional discussion about budgets, spending priorities, etc., but I am just addressing the topic of revenue for infrastructure. I don't like taxes any more than anyone else, BUT a fair use tax at least treats all the same and since road use taxes via miles, fuel, etc. are how we allegedly pay for roads, then let's make it so everyone pays their share of the usage fee. I think it is a general misconception that EV's ride free, they sure don't in Oregon and I think all states are on board with some fees, but they aren't tied to usage generally and that is probably wrong and may not be high enough to be equivalent per mile of ICE vehicles. Extrapolating into the future when the majority of vehicles may not use liquid fuel it makes sense to approach the problem by an alternative vs a per gallon fuel tax and while change is hard I think the sooner it happens for alternative revenue generation the better it will be for all in the future.
I own a 2023 Tesla Model Y and live in Oregon.
I own a Dodge Ram with a Cummins diesel
I drove commercially for awhile and have a CDL so understand how heavy vehicles pay and if you think you pay a lot they many times more as they should.
Let's start with the commercial side. ALL commercial plates in Oregon pay a weight mile tax. It isn't based on how much the vehicle weighs, BUT on you registered GVW and then you report the miles, so lighter vehicle, fewer miles pays less. No one likes it, BUT that seems fair, you pay for what portion of the road you use. You DO NOT pay the state fuel tax in addition, with what is know as a PUC permit you are exempt at the pump.
I of course pay fuel tax for the diesel put into my pickup, currently $0.40 per gallon state tax and $0.244 per gallon federal tax. In addition some locations add a local tax, $0.02-0.10 per gallon. That works out to maybe $0.03-0.04 per mile just for use tax.
Oregon has graduated fees for vehicle registration depending on the year, EPA rating and type of fuel. These fees for two years vary from $126 to $316 with a BEV being the most expensive. So that puts the BEV at $190 more each two year registration period vs my pickup. Oregon also offers OPTIONALLY a Pay-by-Mile Program named OReGO which has a fee of $86 for two years plus the per mile rate of $0.02 per mile.
Currently either the flat fee is too low or the mileage rate is too, high, because over about 7000 miles a year costs more paying by the mile.
Nonetheless, I think eventually a weight mile charge for all vehicles probably makes sense, and by weight I mean ranges, probably all vehicles under 8000 pounds one rate, another from 8000 to 20000 or so and then you enter commercial truck territory. Everyone thinks an EV is hugely heavy and it is somewhat heavier, BUT maybe only 500 pounds for an equivalent sized vehicle to a Tesla Model Y, it isn't like they are tons heavier.
It isn't just EV's, hybrids and even ICE vehicles are getting more and more efficient, you can't sell enough fuel with taxes to pay for the roads anymore. Back when everything got 20 MPG or less fuel tax was probably sufficient, especially going back to when fuel taxes were implemented, all vehicles used about the same fuel per mile, now it is totally antiquated way of revenue for infrastructure.
We can have additional discussion about budgets, spending priorities, etc., but I am just addressing the topic of revenue for infrastructure. I don't like taxes any more than anyone else, BUT a fair use tax at least treats all the same and since road use taxes via miles, fuel, etc. are how we allegedly pay for roads, then let's make it so everyone pays their share of the usage fee. I think it is a general misconception that EV's ride free, they sure don't in Oregon and I think all states are on board with some fees, but they aren't tied to usage generally and that is probably wrong and may not be high enough to be equivalent per mile of ICE vehicles. Extrapolating into the future when the majority of vehicles may not use liquid fuel it makes sense to approach the problem by an alternative vs a per gallon fuel tax and while change is hard I think the sooner it happens for alternative revenue generation the better it will be for all in the future.
The federal government does not tax your electricity
Correct, but those electric vehicle owners are getting away with not paying federal highway tax
Which is 18 1/2 cents a gallon
In the end everyone benefits from road infrastructure even if you don’t drive at all. Deliveries, services, national defense….
We’re not talking millions. The more complex the bigger the beurocracy built around it.
I don’t disagree however it will be a long time. I think before the federal government can get all 52 states to report mileage for tax collection purposes.
No but the State does and that is still a tax.
I am with you on this. The fed should get out of the road business. States can build their own roads.
Agree but I think right now a solution needs for the federal. States already imposing their tax
