Is anyone aware of any serious unbiased studies of the differences in performance of various 2 cycle oils? Is there general agreement in the 2 cycle area that synthetics are almost always better like there seems to be in the 4 cycle area? If so, is it generally thought that while not necessarily being the best, that Redline and Amsoil 2 cycle products should be at least included in any list of the top 2 cycle products? I have a Homelite blower which calls for 50:1 and a Poulan Weedeater that calls for 40:1. Thus far I've used Homelite synthetic blend in the blower and Poulan synthetic in the Weedeater, but am wondering if I'm interested in the longest life span whether I should go to the trouble of trying to get Redline or Amsoil 2 cycle oils or possibly some other brand of oil? A couple of seemingly contradictory and/or somewhat incredible things have raised my curiosity about this. First thing was a study on the internet purporting to show 2 different Pennzoil dino 2 cycle oils outperforming another brand's pure synthetic in a 280 hour test of airplane engines. How any dino oil could actually outperform any pure synthetic over an extended period of running is hard for me to understand. Second, I have priced both Redline and Amsoil 100% synthetic 2 cycle oils and on a per ounce basis, they seem to be quite a bit cheaper than a lot of OEM brand dino or synthetic blend oils at Home Depot,etc., and that simply doesn't make any sense to me that these quality pure synthetics should be priced quite a bit lower than dino and synthetic blend products. And then the third curious thing was I noticed that Amsoil says to run their product Professional Saber (this is the one they specifically recommended for blowers and weed trimmers--they recommend other products for other applications) at 100:1 no matter what the manufacturer recommends whereas Redline says to stick with whatever ratio the manufacturer recommends. Finally, I read somewhere about how 2 cycle oils should have a minimal if not zero amount of solvents in order to avoid forming deposits. How does anyone find out which oils are solvent-free? Any knowledge or thoughts anyone has on any of this will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
how to figure out best 2 cycle oil
- Thread starter Jasper8146
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I've run a 2-cycle Lawn Boy mower the better part of three decades on Lawn Boy 2-cycle oil and also have run an Echo leaf blower for over twenty years on the same oil. Can't perform better than that!
The subject of ratios has been discussed here several times in the past. AFAIK, the consensus was that the ratio is dependent on the specific oil that you're using, and not on the specific equipment/engine. So, if oil A says to mix it 1:50 and oil B says 1:100, then you should just follow that.
You really have a 40:1 and a separate 50:1 gas can? You don't just run both at 40:1?
You're way beyond the effort I put into this. Personally I like outboard TCW3 rated stuff. If it's good enough for a $12,000 outboard it's probably good enough for my weed whacker. I've read that synthetic 2cycle oils blend better with ethanol gasoline, but don't have the theory behind it. Probably more important to these things is an oil that stabilizes the gas to prevent varnish in the carbs.
You're way beyond the effort I put into this. Personally I like outboard TCW3 rated stuff. If it's good enough for a $12,000 outboard it's probably good enough for my weed whacker. I've read that synthetic 2cycle oils blend better with ethanol gasoline, but don't have the theory behind it. Probably more important to these things is an oil that stabilizes the gas to prevent varnish in the carbs.
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This is a good question. I was at the mower shop the other day and noticed Stihl sells three different 2-cycle oils. They had a full synthetic, a synthetic blend, and a mineral based lube. Of the three products mentioned, the middle priced blend product held the highest industry ratings of ISO-L-EGD, JASO FD. The Synthetic version was rated lower and the mineral version was API TC only.
This is a case where the more expensive product didn't perform as well with regard to cleanliness and wear.
Personally, I always look for ISO-L-EGD or JASO FC or FD for my air cooled 2-cycle oils. NO ratings on the package or misspelled ratings and I continue my search.
This is a case where the more expensive product didn't perform as well with regard to cleanliness and wear.
Personally, I always look for ISO-L-EGD or JASO FC or FD for my air cooled 2-cycle oils. NO ratings on the package or misspelled ratings and I continue my search.
First of all, and I'm not trying to be a grammar nazi, when you type a long post like that it's important to break it up into paragraphs. Whenever you start changing to another sub-topic, hit the enter key a couple of times before you continue to provide a logical break for the reader. I had a hard time following your post.
Now, to answer your questions:
I don't know of any unbiased studies except those that define industry 2T oil standards. Those may be relied upon. The rest is just marketing. So, you should compare oils based on what specifications they meet ONLY. Synthetic, semi-synthetic, and conventional really doesn't mean too much, but there are industry standards that will tell you about every metric of performance.
There is some debate about how oil/gas ratios should be mixed. It's my opinion that you should read what the ratio on THE EQUIPMENT says rather than what the oil recommends. I think it's ludicrous to mix 100:1 oil. Mix it 50:1 or 40:1 or 32:1 as the equipment recommends regardless of how awesome the oil manufacturer claims their product is. The manufacturer gives a recommendation that provides enough protection so that the equipment won't fail and you won't need a warranty replacement, so they're more likely to recommend a little stronger mix than is necessary.
If you only have one 2T gas can, but many different pieces of equipment that recommend different ratios, it is my opinion that you should err on the side of protection and mix oil to the highest common ratio. Too much oil may cause a little bit of smoke (but more often than not, it's not noticeable) but too little oil... That will cause you to need new equipment.
Now, to answer your questions:
I don't know of any unbiased studies except those that define industry 2T oil standards. Those may be relied upon. The rest is just marketing. So, you should compare oils based on what specifications they meet ONLY. Synthetic, semi-synthetic, and conventional really doesn't mean too much, but there are industry standards that will tell you about every metric of performance.
There is some debate about how oil/gas ratios should be mixed. It's my opinion that you should read what the ratio on THE EQUIPMENT says rather than what the oil recommends. I think it's ludicrous to mix 100:1 oil. Mix it 50:1 or 40:1 or 32:1 as the equipment recommends regardless of how awesome the oil manufacturer claims their product is. The manufacturer gives a recommendation that provides enough protection so that the equipment won't fail and you won't need a warranty replacement, so they're more likely to recommend a little stronger mix than is necessary.
If you only have one 2T gas can, but many different pieces of equipment that recommend different ratios, it is my opinion that you should err on the side of protection and mix oil to the highest common ratio. Too much oil may cause a little bit of smoke (but more often than not, it's not noticeable) but too little oil... That will cause you to need new equipment.
Jasper8146, quite a post. I'll take a stab at a couple of the issues you've raised:
Like 4-strokes, application can greatly affect how an oil performs. Airplane engines run differently than small power tools. Outboards run differently than chain saws (water-cooling and steady rpms). Some outboard TC-W3's oils for water-cooled engines can indeed work in an air-cooled application (TC) like a chain saw, but I don't recommend it, as Stihl doesn't recommend it. (I don't have a Stihl, but I figure that they know a thing or two about chain saws!)
You can have long equipment life with either synthetic or conventional 2-cycle oil. One BITOG member, boraticus, has a quite a few 2-stroke engines and runs plain old Canadian tire 2-stroke oil with great performance in various applications. On another forum, for primarily landscapers and property maintenance organizations, you can read about people have run equipment in commercial service on Amsoil Saber Pro for many years.
Amsoil Saber Pro has no solvents. That being said, I personally don't believe that solvents are to blame for deposits. Could be, but that's the first I've heard of it.
I used Amsoil Saber Pro at 80:1 this season in my two-cycle equipment (blower/vac, brushcutter, hedge trimmers, weedwacker, chain saw) and it did great. I love the extra power and easy starting with my Weedeater and chain saw. Saber Pro will be back again next season. I'm hoping not to have to use my little two-stroke camping generator this winter, but if I do, it'll get the leftover mixed fuel from this season.
In case you are wondering about the 80:1 rato, instead of the recommended 100:1, I settled on it after reading many posts from commercial users on other forums. I also like the idea of a safety margin. I've also used the Poulan/Weedeater synthetic oil previously and it ran well and clean, too.
Big Box store pricing on 2-stroke oil can be high.
BTW, I am not an Amsoil dealer, just a happy customer.
Like 4-strokes, application can greatly affect how an oil performs. Airplane engines run differently than small power tools. Outboards run differently than chain saws (water-cooling and steady rpms). Some outboard TC-W3's oils for water-cooled engines can indeed work in an air-cooled application (TC) like a chain saw, but I don't recommend it, as Stihl doesn't recommend it. (I don't have a Stihl, but I figure that they know a thing or two about chain saws!)
You can have long equipment life with either synthetic or conventional 2-cycle oil. One BITOG member, boraticus, has a quite a few 2-stroke engines and runs plain old Canadian tire 2-stroke oil with great performance in various applications. On another forum, for primarily landscapers and property maintenance organizations, you can read about people have run equipment in commercial service on Amsoil Saber Pro for many years.
Amsoil Saber Pro has no solvents. That being said, I personally don't believe that solvents are to blame for deposits. Could be, but that's the first I've heard of it.
I used Amsoil Saber Pro at 80:1 this season in my two-cycle equipment (blower/vac, brushcutter, hedge trimmers, weedwacker, chain saw) and it did great. I love the extra power and easy starting with my Weedeater and chain saw. Saber Pro will be back again next season. I'm hoping not to have to use my little two-stroke camping generator this winter, but if I do, it'll get the leftover mixed fuel from this season.
In case you are wondering about the 80:1 rato, instead of the recommended 100:1, I settled on it after reading many posts from commercial users on other forums. I also like the idea of a safety margin. I've also used the Poulan/Weedeater synthetic oil previously and it ran well and clean, too.
Big Box store pricing on 2-stroke oil can be high.
BTW, I am not an Amsoil dealer, just a happy customer.
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
....those that define industry 2T oil standards...
Why do they call it 2T oil? What does the "T" stand for?
....those that define industry 2T oil standards...
Why do they call it 2T oil? What does the "T" stand for?
Originally Posted By: SWSportsman
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
....those that define industry 2T oil standards...
Why do they call it 2T oil? What does the "T" stand for?
The internet consensus seems to be that 2T is the acronym from the German term 2 Takt.
Here's a good explanation for you:
http://forum.scooterforum.net/forum/f50/verschil-2-takt-en-4-takt-olie-22793/
"Het verschil:
- 2 takt is voor 2 takt motoren
- 4 takt is voor 4 takt motoren
(Do'h) weer een nutteloze reply van mij ....Of het kwaad kan, geen idee ..."
And don't forget it!
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
....those that define industry 2T oil standards...
Why do they call it 2T oil? What does the "T" stand for?
The internet consensus seems to be that 2T is the acronym from the German term 2 Takt.
Here's a good explanation for you:
http://forum.scooterforum.net/forum/f50/verschil-2-takt-en-4-takt-olie-22793/
"Het verschil:
- 2 takt is voor 2 takt motoren
- 4 takt is voor 4 takt motoren
(Do'h) weer een nutteloze reply van mij ....Of het kwaad kan, geen idee ..."
And don't forget it!
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: SWSportsman
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
....those that define industry 2T oil standards...
Why do they call it 2T oil? What does the "T" stand for?
The internet consensus seems to be that 2T is the acronym from the German term 2 Takt.
Here's a good explanation for you:
http://forum.scooterforum.net/forum/f50/verschil-2-takt-en-4-takt-olie-22793/
"Het verschil:
- 2 takt is voor 2 takt motoren
- 4 takt is voor 4 takt motoren
(Do'h) weer een nutteloze reply van mij ....Of het kwaad kan, geen idee ..."
And don't forget it!
Thanks, Doitmyself. I didn't even know that!
Originally Posted By: SWSportsman
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
....those that define industry 2T oil standards...
Why do they call it 2T oil? What does the "T" stand for?
The internet consensus seems to be that 2T is the acronym from the German term 2 Takt.
Here's a good explanation for you:
http://forum.scooterforum.net/forum/f50/verschil-2-takt-en-4-takt-olie-22793/
"Het verschil:
- 2 takt is voor 2 takt motoren
- 4 takt is voor 4 takt motoren
(Do'h) weer een nutteloze reply van mij ....Of het kwaad kan, geen idee ..."
And don't forget it!
Thanks, Doitmyself. I didn't even know that!
There are studies that show lower ratio's will produce more horsepower and higher heat with the same oil. These revolve around motocross and snowmobile racing, how applicable is that to power equipment. There is a study of greater carbon build up with low ratios, but that was done with dino, would syn make a difference? TDI Rick has posted some studies, but the search here is rough.
Many professional loggers and lawn care guys will not use outboard TCW in air cooled engines, yet guys here claim they have done it for years.
I think it is a subject of great worry in relation to the consequence. I run Stihl Ultra at 40;1 in everything. The darn carbs diaphrams wear out on my equipment but nothing else.
The only siezed, or loss of compression I have ever witnessed in repairs I've done, is from:
1. straight gas
2. Carb set too lean (not oil ratio)
3. Grit from dirty air filters scuffing the cyl walls
Most repairs are gas left in during long term storage. Good luck in your quest, and if you find something, please post.
Many professional loggers and lawn care guys will not use outboard TCW in air cooled engines, yet guys here claim they have done it for years.
I think it is a subject of great worry in relation to the consequence. I run Stihl Ultra at 40;1 in everything. The darn carbs diaphrams wear out on my equipment but nothing else.
The only siezed, or loss of compression I have ever witnessed in repairs I've done, is from:
1. straight gas
2. Carb set too lean (not oil ratio)
3. Grit from dirty air filters scuffing the cyl walls
Most repairs are gas left in during long term storage. Good luck in your quest, and if you find something, please post.
As a former 2 stroke oil tester, I feel that today, it's impossible to know what oil is best. Also, I'm not convinced that the oil brand makes all that much difference in lawn equipment. With the exception of Redline Racing Oil. That oil will promote corrosion and eventually cause problems.
The best 2 stroke oil mankind has ever produced is no longer sold.
Oils such as Yamalube seem to function just fine in Yamaha marine and off road products. Same goes for other equipment brand oils. Generally, they are chosen to meet the needs of the equipment.
It's not likely you will wear out your Echo trimmer, ever. It will fail in some other way, prior to wearing out.
The best 2 stroke oil mankind has ever produced is no longer sold.
Oils such as Yamalube seem to function just fine in Yamaha marine and off road products. Same goes for other equipment brand oils. Generally, they are chosen to meet the needs of the equipment.
It's not likely you will wear out your Echo trimmer, ever. It will fail in some other way, prior to wearing out.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The subject of ratios has been discussed here several times in the past. AFAIK, the consensus was that the ratio is dependent on the specific oil that you're using, and not on the specific equipment/engine. So, if oil A says to mix it 1:50 and oil B says 1:100, then you should just follow that.
Best answer.
I actually had three 2 cycle mix cans: 32:1, 40:1 and 50:1 for my various equipment. Now all run just fine at 50:1.
The subject of ratios has been discussed here several times in the past. AFAIK, the consensus was that the ratio is dependent on the specific oil that you're using, and not on the specific equipment/engine. So, if oil A says to mix it 1:50 and oil B says 1:100, then you should just follow that.
Best answer.
I actually had three 2 cycle mix cans: 32:1, 40:1 and 50:1 for my various equipment. Now all run just fine at 50:1.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The best 2 stroke oil mankind has ever produced is no longer sold.
I have it. $50 a quart. Holler at me.
The best 2 stroke oil mankind has ever produced is no longer sold.
I have it. $50 a quart. Holler at me.
Early 70's Dirt Bike Magazine did a shoort out. Klotz Supertechniplate won. Still available today as are most the oils in this test report. Maxima 927 would be a good second chice.
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The best 2 stroke oil mankind has ever produced is no longer sold.
I have it. $50 a quart. Holler at me.
I see you're in full support of capitalism.
Originally Posted By: BBDartCA
Early 70's Dirt Bike Magazine did a shoort out. Klotz Supertechniplate won. Still available today as are most the oils in this test report. Maxima 927 would be a good second chice.
And both of these would be WAY overkill for lawn and garden equipment.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The best 2 stroke oil mankind has ever produced is no longer sold.
I have it. $50 a quart. Holler at me.
I see you're in full support of capitalism.
Originally Posted By: BBDartCA
Early 70's Dirt Bike Magazine did a shoort out. Klotz Supertechniplate won. Still available today as are most the oils in this test report. Maxima 927 would be a good second chice.
And both of these would be WAY overkill for lawn and garden equipment.
If selecting the best oil for engine life is the reason for the lengthy query of the O.P., I suggest that the difference in type of oil (synthetic vs. mineral) will be of little or no consequence in the long run.
I've got two cycle engines in excess of 35 years old that have never seen synthetic oil. I own 18 two cycle engines ranging from grass trimmers, chainsaws, mowers, several motorcycles, including a dirt racer etc. that have never had a lubrication related problem.
I use a decent quality mineral two cycle oil (Canadian Tire brand) and buy it by the gallon. It's relatively inexpensive and has provided solid protection for decades.
Oil ratio is far more important than oil brand or type. Mix the oil as per engine manufacturers recommendation or a bit richer. If you do, it's very unlikely that you will encounter any lubrication problems and your engines will probably last longer than the device it's mounted on.
I've got two cycle engines in excess of 35 years old that have never seen synthetic oil. I own 18 two cycle engines ranging from grass trimmers, chainsaws, mowers, several motorcycles, including a dirt racer etc. that have never had a lubrication related problem.
I use a decent quality mineral two cycle oil (Canadian Tire brand) and buy it by the gallon. It's relatively inexpensive and has provided solid protection for decades.
Oil ratio is far more important than oil brand or type. Mix the oil as per engine manufacturers recommendation or a bit richer. If you do, it's very unlikely that you will encounter any lubrication problems and your engines will probably last longer than the device it's mounted on.
How does one know whether any particular oil meets those standards? Will they say so on every bottle including small 2.6 oz. bottles?
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