How important is the VI for ATF?

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Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Just to clarify Redline D6 is NOT a DEXRON(R) approved product as far as I know.

Correct, Red Line D6 is a Dexron VI replacement that is superior in performance.


You know that for a fact do you? Perhaps you could provide test data to support your statement?
 
Or how about Amsoil ATL? Also a superior performing Dexron VI replacement though I still prefer the D6.

Know of anything that would look interesting compared with Red Line D6? I'm sure there are others that would like to know!
 
Ive been using Redline C+ATF in my Manual trans that specs ATF+4. If I remember right, it has a VI of 213


EDIT:


Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.5
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 32.3
Viscosity Index 213
Pour Point, °C -60
Pour Point, °F -76
Flash Point, °C222
Flash Point, °F432
Brookfield Vis @ -40°C, P 38
 
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Perhaps you could provide test data to support your statement?


Whitewolf, I know where you are coming from and respect your AT expertise but I have to comment.

Neither Redline D6 nor the Amsoil ATL carry the GM DexronVI(R) approval, but that does not mean they are inferior. I can tell you that the DEXVI additive package(s) and the base oils I am using are superior IMHO, to most DexronVI(R) approved oils out there (including the GM bottled oil) and we are currently running tests to show that, as much as our development budget will allow. Our's is a PAO, synthesized ester, fractionated-vegetable-oil ester base oil mix.

One of the test vehicles is my own '08 TrailBlazer with the 5.3L V8 engine. When new, I used the GM DexronVI(R) oil straight from the dealer's counter for 2 complete fills, one at 5,000 miles (to remove factory particulates) and the other at 35,000 miles to help establish a baseline. The bulk transmission oil, measured at the sump runs an average of 10 to 15 F cooler than the DexronVI(R). In addition, shifts are smoother as well in all temps.

Friction retention over time, oxidation resistance, and overall longevity of the fluid are being evaluated closely.

Let me make it clear that this is not to say that GM DEXRONVI(R) is inferior. It is a good oil for it's intended purposes, and I think GM makes better transmissions than in the past.

But others in the industry feel that as good or better oils can be developed without paying the GM licensing (approval) fees.

Will we put through it through the GM battery of tests. Probably not because SWRI and like labs charges a fortune for GM approval testing.
 
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I've been watching this thread with great interest, both from a general perspective and how this applies to any AT, but also from a specific application point of view. I also have a vehicle with an AW transmission, the U151E, in a Toyota Sienna. This vehicle does some summer towing duty at the vehicle's rated maximum of 3,500 lbs.

I am well aware that the T-IV/3309 fluid is nothing spectacular, either in its composition or performance. At the same time, this fluid is not expensive and does the job adequately.

My previous experience with ATs and off spec fluids however have me gunshy to try anything but specified. In a 2002 Protege specifying M-V, I had a change done using Mercon V, not knowing there was a difference. Tranny failure some time later with a subsequent owner whom I know. It wasn't until years later when I discovered M-V and Mercon V were not the same did I make the connection of the tranny failure to the fluid.

Prior to that, an iffy lube changed the ATF in a 95 Dodge Colt (aka Mitsubishi Mirage). My belief is they used a Dex II or III. I first connected the subsequent failure to either their flush machine or iffy techniques, but now wonder if spec fluid might have been ATF+3, ATF+4 or an SP-II or SP-III.

Tranny fluid in both cases were changed at a reasonable interval. I know that was not the issue.

I also hear of differences in seal materials, friction material, etc, from AT to AT. I see transmission models where older units specified one fluid type, and newer units upgraded to another fluid, or the same tranny in different manufacturer's vehicles specifying different fluid. No interchangeability or compatibility is ever stated.

How then can I, be reassured, when choosing a fluid for my application that it truly won't cause harm, accelerated wear, or other negative effect compared to spec? How are the differences in materials addressed? And how can some of these span several specs (I have a theory here, but won't share until I hear an "expert" weigh in).

I have an application where the fluid specified works and is reasonably priced. It is not like a case of Z-1 Honda fluid where the quality is questionable or a case of a ZF5HP19 tranny with outrageous pricing on spec fluid. I don't have an easy sell to sway me off the spec.

My profession, while unrelated to anything automotive, has taught me never to make a decision without the required due diligence. So that is my motivation. I want the facts so I can arrive at my own conclusion.
 
Weebl, you threw out so many vehicles it is difficult to know where to start; maybe you could have started a new thread and referenced this one? I assume we're sticking here to the topic of passenger vehicles and definately not commercial vehicles.

First of all one should educate himself as to what fluid is needed in a vehicle and never let a Jiffy lube or any mechanic put a fluid in unless you know what fluid is being put in the transmission (data the Owners Manual). While most private mechanics have application charts on computers these days, the Jiffy lubes IMHO don't always follow these charts and MAY put in whatever bulk ATF they have.

If you are gunshy, stick to the fluid required and add an additional cooler and change often if you do any towing, but don't expect any transmission used for towing to outlast one simply used for daily driving or an occasional vacation trip. When used for towing, you will have more wear and higher temps.

For Chrysler vehicles, definately use an ATF+4 compatible fluid.

If you have a Honda, use the Honda Z-1 or whatever is specified, especially if under warranty.

With some transmission designs, it is hard to attribute failures to poor design or a fluid misapplication.

As far as Mazda's, the same goes as before.

As far as FM chemistry, a universal ATF attempts to match a wide range of applications using an addpack for similar types of friction materials. The AW chemistry is pretty much the same for most AT's, with the exception of older Honda AT's.

As far as seal compatibility, I have yet to see a seal failure attributed to any modern ATF.

I have seen a few tailshaft seal failures but this was due either a worn-out seal, or to a rough surface finish on the tailshaft, or a bad universal joint.
 
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What about Dexron VI and Allison viton seal compatibility? Just sayin
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What about Dexron VI and Allison viton seal compatibility?


We're sticking to the topic of passenger vehicles only so as not to mix issues.

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I assume we're sticking here to the topic of passenger vehicles and definately not commercial vehicles.
 
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Yes, transmissions, unlike engines, tend to be very picky about fluids. This, naturally, makes one worrisome, especially when you are thinking about switching from Toyota IV, which has served my car for about 126,000 miles, to a synthetic that claims to meet the spec. Ultimately, it is a matter of faith and trust. I do want the lower temps that a synthetic offer and the longer drain but why are there no synthetics that meet the spec?
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think this one would definately meet or exceed the spec.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9


T-IV is essentially a DexIII, Nissan Matic D knockoff.



Redline is recommended for the spec but doesn't technically "meet" the spec. The same is true for Amsoil, which is also fully synthetic and can be had at a cheaper price. Again, I believe that it comes down to trust and faith.
 
^...yet, that is built on fluid that is essentially 'confirmed' to be of no less quality than the 'technically' "holy" spec'd goods.

Get the Red Line or Amsoil, can't lose, IMO.
 
Didn't Red Line D6 used to meet the T-IV spec for a brief amount of time? I wonder what changed.
 
I wonder what the shear-down-to spec of D4 is. Red Line specifically states that D6 will not shear below 6.1 and it has a VI of 166. D4 starts at 7.5 and has a VI of 198 so it must have a different add-pack than D6.
 
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Well, the word from Red Line is that D4 will not shear below 7 cSt (7%).

So the bottom line is:
D4 = 7 cSt
D6 = 6 cSt

I don't see how the D4 viscosity is necessary, or even beneficial in most applications unless you are running abnormally high loads and/or temps. The 6.1 cSt of D6 is far superior to the majority of shear-down-to 4.~ oils everybody else has.
 
I have a 2003 Toyota Sienna that calls for a Dexron III fluid.
I have been running the Red Line D4 in it and am very happy with it.
I ran the Red Line D4 in my '96 Ford Windstar (Mercon) and was very happy with it.

Note that neither is a T-IV application.

Molakule posts great information.....I always like seeing his posts.

If Redline says that the fluid is good for a specification, I tend to trust them.
You could send them a question through their website asking which is best for your particular application......they have a great reputation for being very responsive.

Whitewolf does (in my opinion) bring up a valid point about license. Amsoil/Red Line/etc will state "recommended for" and are not "licensed".
You are trusting the company at their word on the product being "suitable" for the application.
In my case, I trust Amsoil and Red Line at their word.
I have not used Amsoil products, but don't take that as a negative......as there are LOTS of great products that I have not used.

One thing that I noticed with my Sienna....that some folks have mentioned with their Sienna's also.
When the vehicle is COLD, it will hold 2nd gear to a slightly higher RPM than normal.
I notice this when cruising in 25-35mph speed zones.
THIS IS NORMAL......the computer does this until the vehicle warms up.
There is a transmission fluid temperature sensor in the transmission, so the computer "knows" when it has warmed up.

The filter in my tranny is just a simple nylon screen.
I intalled a Magnefine filter in the cooler line.
 
Originally Posted By: martinq
Well, the word from Red Line is that D4 will not shear below 7 cSt (7%).

So the bottom line is:
D4 = 7 cSt
D6 = 6 cSt

I don't see how the D4 viscosity is necessary, or even beneficial in most applications unless you are running abnormally high loads and/or temps. The 6.1 cSt of D6 is far superior to the majority of shear-down-to 4.~ oils everybody else has.


Maybe so, BUT it IS a PERFECT viscosity (and overall fluid) for manual gearboxes which spec an ATF!
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