How bad is lugging ?

[JT20]

I did not even felt it but i've never used anything that thin before even if my manual from the 90s allows anything from 5w30 to 20w50 in my temp range. I am running it just to see how the engine behaves with it. By the way, this a 229.5 oil, 3.5 HTHS. What i notice so far is that the engine sounds quieter when cold, less rattle, maybe a very slight increase in gas mileage but i think this is lost in the noise between varying trips, fuel, AC on/off, weather... It is more of a psychological irrationnal thing of "thicker is better". I will see how oil consumption evolves but i will likely switch back to 5w40.

I have somewhat similar feelings to yours. I just did an oil change. I could have chosen 5W-30, or 0W-40. Based on a recommendation from my specific car owner's community, I decided to go with Castrol Edge 0W-40.. the last oil was likely a 30, since that particular mechanic felt that anything thicker than a 30 was too thick and would mess things up . (He drove a 07 Chrysler 300C with a supercharger and a lot of boost, curious what kind of oil he had in that. That was a fast car also. Anyways) So now I have a 40-weight.

What I notice is, ever so slightly less willingness for the RPMs to FLY up the tachometer when haste is summoned via flooring it, otherwise no ill effects and it is only because I am very in tune with my engine that I can notice the slightest of difference in feel.

Just raced a C7 Corvette with a custom plate on the highway, he had two of his pals running interference as well, have not encountered that before.. still, he had the faster car, but, the oil is not going to change that lol. I chased him pretty well for light highway traffic. Engine felt pretty solid at top speed and there was plenty of downshifting since I had to see what my car could do. I'll bet he wasn't expecting to have to work to stay ahead of me.

 

[350Rocket]

Maybe it depends on the age of the vehicle? I know older cars don't like ethanol at all because the alcohol content eats away at certain parts.

Most new cars that aren't "flex fuel" only allow for "up to" 10% ethanol content, if I'm not mistaken. At least it's what I've read in most owner's manuals.

In my experience with e10 in my carbureted stuff, it eats away at the short sections of rubber fuel injection hose I have on the one car and caused the carburetor to have issues every 4-5 years.

My friend hasn't had the same amount of issues as me but he drives several old cars through the summer and all get very few miles on them. Like 2000 a year. Mine was getting about 10-20k miles a year when I had the carb issues. Both cars are stored with e0 and atabil for the winter. Right now it's gone longer than previously without any issues (used quadrajet we did a quicky clean-out on) the only issue is a couple leaking gaskets and a weak accelerator pump. Maybe because I'm only doing a short commute to work now and it gets about 5k a year before storage (most of those miles are long trips). I also switched to nothing but top tier gas.

I'm guessing there are not a lot of people driving 100+ miles a day in a carbureted vehicle on e10, so not so many reports of issues on here.

 

[02SE]

I floor it 95% of the time when accelerating since i have no power and i have to keep up with traffic. The worse are my diesel mercs, no other way than flooring them to get them out of their own way (my previous 200D needed almost 30 sec going from 0 to 60).

30 seconds from 0-60??? YOU'RE ALREADY DEAD!












Seriously, you're fine. Just don't make a habit of it.

 

[OM605]

30 seconds from 0-60??? YOU'RE ALREADY DEAD!

I got used to it and drove with cars that slow for years. If i remember correctly, the W124 200D needed almost 35 seconds. After the diesels i had a W210 E200 AT and it made 0-60 in 11 seconds, which felt really fast to me. The C180 i currently have is in the same league but feels slower since it is a manual.

 

[Jetronic]

What is happening out there?

War rethoric.
France is backing up Greece against Turkey over EEZ issues and alledgedly sent the Charles de Gaulle to the area. A couple months ago a french corvette tried to stop a ship suspected of smuggling weapons to Libya aswell, and turkish frigates lit it up with acquisition radar. That didn't go down well either. A few days later French made planes (Mirage or Rafale) attacked a libyan airfiled and destroyed turkish air defense systems stored there. It's assumed it was UAE planes but the timing seems too coincidental. UAE and Egypt are also in Greece's corner.

Back to lugging now..

 

[Jetronic]

with the limited power and torque that engine has at every point in the rev range, I doubt it's even possible to lug the engine to the point of actually doing damage. Burn a clutch by starting in 3rd, sure. But that's about it

 

[JT20]

I used to shift my H-pattern 1-2-5 from lights instead of going up each gear, sometimes most of the time sometimes sometime but in city traffic? 2nd got me up to around 30, pushing 40MPH just fine then I could put it in 5th for a nice low RPM and fuel efficient experience in city blocks. 40 was about as fast as you could go on a city block, 35MPH in 5th was pushing it but then you could just neutral coast to the red light usually. Unsure if any of that was lugging it but that was on a BMW 2.5 6cyl, for comparison against the Mercedes and the diesels being discussed here.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

On an Otto cycle engine, at 1200 rpm, each cylinder is igniting 10 times per second, so half that at 600 rpm. Now multiply that by the number of cylinders your engine sports; the only thing that makes this lugging would be an overcammed, short stroke with a low velocity intake - on a Petrol engine. We are overcammed and have low velocity with 4 valves, but many new engines have long stroke. Not a good engine formula in my book but a emissions and FE compromise.
On a Petrol engine I would have stalled trying to start out in 3rd with anything.

Maybe the diesel just chugged. I the clutch splipped that helped a bit - but not the clutch. I don't have any MT + diesel experience.
On a worn engine your journal clearances are likely about 0.001" running, where they would be 0.0003-0.0006" fresh for 30 grade oil with 5 psi min pressure at idle. I'm sure you are o.k. if you don't make a habit out of it. I think side -stepping is much worse a problem
-Ken

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Looking at this from an engineering perspective focusing only on the engine with all variables equal and specifically phrasing the question (s) as...

1- Does lugging have the potential to damage an ICE from a lubrication related perspective ( a property lubrication directly affects or protects against)

2-so, what part specifically and to what extent

(I've never investigated this in any detail on an ICE but from general machine design experience and "off the hoof" commentary)

Those being the boundaries and conditions, I don't see a significant amount of bearing damage because if the oil pump is properly providing volume at RPM to maintain the proper MOFT then there would be no mechanical difference or distinction between the "lugging' load and any other similar load.

I can however see a potential for enhanced cylinder and stem wear by unburnt fuel diluting that oil in that boundary condition allowing excessive wear over time.

comments? thoughts?

 

[JT20]

Looking at this from an engineering perspective focusing only on the engine with all variables equal and specifically phrasing the question (s) as...

1- Does lugging have the potential to damage an ICE from a lubrication related perspective ( a property lubrication directly affects or protects against)

2-so, what part specifically and to what extent

(I've never investigated this in any detail on an ICE but from general machine design experience and "off the hoof" commentary)

Those being the boundaries and conditions, I don't see a significant amount of bearing damage because if the oil pump is properly providing volume at RPM to maintain the proper MOFT then there would be no mechanical difference or distinction between the "lugging' load and any other similar load.

I can however see a potential for enhanced cylinder and stem wear by unburnt fuel diluting that oil in that boundary condition allowing excessive wear over time.

comments? thoughts?

For the transmission, I do wonder the effects.

Lugging seems to be the opposite of engine braking.

 

[PimTac]

I don’t think lugging has the same effects on engines these days what with computers really controlling everything. In the old days you could tell the engine was lugging, especially with a manual shift and it was not good.

I’m old enough that I don’t particularly like to hear and feel the engine lugging but with the modern computer driven engines today and how transmissions get into high gear early on it seems to happen whether we like it or not. But the computers are adjusting a whole bunch of things in a millisecond to adapt to the condition so I will leave it to the box to keep things copacetic.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

For the transmission, I do wonder the effects.

Lugging seems to be the opposite of engine braking.

For a gear, "back driving" and intermittent loading is one of the worst things you can do and will eventually severely damage a gear. Most gears are not designed for that type of service.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I had a reprogram (dealer) my 09 Maxima CVT that raised the 1200 rpm settling point to 1500 at full lockup. It definitely helped the uphill and light acceleration vibration.

A coworker bought a 2013 sentra new (still has it), my fiance had a 2017 and now has a 2019 Sentra as a lease. The programming change from the 2013 to the 2017 made it drivewable. The engine just does not have enough balancing for how much lugging the 2013 does. It's not that specific one, I brought him to the dealer and he test drove a few 2013 Sentras with different options. They all just lugged and vibrated horribly. I'm surprised they don't have issues with broken flexplates or cranks / pistons. It would seriouly try to acellerate up to 65 and hold as few revs as long as it could! The 2017 definitely shot for 1200 RPM all day, but would at least only do it under real light throttle.

 

[350Rocket]

I don’t think lugging has the same effects on engines these days what with computers really controlling everything. In the old days you could tell the engine was lugging, especially with a manual shift and it was not good.

I’m old enough that I don’t particularly like to hear and feel the engine lugging but with the modern computer driven engines today and how transmissions get into high gear early on it seems to happen whether we like it or not. But the computers are adjusting a whole bunch of things in a millisecond to adapt to the condition so I will leave it to the box to keep things copacetic.

When my fiance's 2013 Sonata lugs (she drives with the automatic in "Eco mode") it pings (at least in the summer time). My 84 Cutlass with a 350v8 carbureted lugs a bit when the torque converter is locked up in 4th or 3rd gear at lower speeds (engine rpm around 1100-1300rpm). The lockup is vacuum controlled and takes a bit of throttle to make it unlock. Once I step on it hard enough that it might do any damage it has already unlocked. It would still probably be better if I could manually control the lockup in those situations so it never lugs, but it's probably doing less damage than the modern GDI engine since at least mine isn't pinging under load.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Looking at this from an engineering perspective focusing only on the engine with all variables equal and specifically phrasing the question (s) as...

1- Does lugging have the potential to damage an ICE from a lubrication related perspective ( a property lubrication directly affects or protects against)

2-so, what part specifically and to what extent

(I've never investigated this in any detail on an ICE but from general machine design experience and "off the hoof" commentary)

Those being the boundaries and conditions, I don't see a significant amount of bearing damage because if the oil pump is properly providing volume at RPM to maintain the proper MOFT then there would be no mechanical difference or distinction between the "lugging' load and any other similar load.

I can however see a potential for enhanced cylinder and stem wear by unburnt fuel diluting that oil in that boundary condition allowing excessive wear over time.

comments? thoughts?

The amount of force the piston/rod is transmitting into the bearing also has an effect on MOFT. So if the MOFT is already low from low viscosity oil and low RPM, then adding high rod load can reduce MOFT even some more. So "lugging" at very low RPM with very large throttle openings is the worse case scenario. Slightly "lugging" the engine at low RPM with very small throttle openings isn't as bad.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

The amount of force the piston/rod is transmitting into the bearing also has an effect on MOFT. So if the MOFT is already low from low viscosity oil and low RPM, then adding high rod load can reduce MOFT even some more. So "lugging" at very low RPM with very large throttle openings is the worse case scenario. Slightly "lugging" the engine at low RPM with very small throttle openings isn't as bad.

That’s yes and no depending on the qualifications which is why I specifically put in there with all things equal. (funny this subject comes up when I am in the process of designing a hybrid journal bearing for a rotary kiln and have all the stuff open and at the front of my mind at the moment)

The statement “In a reciprocating machine, the MOFT in a fluid film bearing is directly affected by and directly affects the running geometric relationship between the shaft and the bearing” is true as written and the basic concept of the FF bearing.

Load, RPM and viscosity are the 3 design factors that determine that effect. (and as subcategories one would break out things like temperature [ as it affects both the fluid and metallurgy], load [ in terms of frequency and amplitude and harmonics] and so forth and so on)

The point is (in general terms and some restrictions and special cases apply) that in a PROPERLY DESIGNED SYSTEM ( including the proper lubricant) the pump and MOFT should be designed where at the lowest RPM the film strength is at least 125% capable of handling the maximum load it would encounter without taking the eccentricity ratio close to zero. (where metal touches)

“Lugging” in terms of load is nothing more than applied force in a “shock pulse” manner ( yeah, everything is a SP in an ICE by virtue of its design but as the “frequency” (RPM) increases, it smooths out to a more wavy sine). Lugging still doesn’t exceed the design of the load bearing capability in terms of force (amplitude)

If one looks at the pressure profile of a HD regime and compare it with a typical geometric profile of a fluid film bearing in a reciprocating event- the MOFT is going to be somewhere around 20° after TDC and BDC [rotation specific] assuming the load is linear within design parameters and the line of centers for the clearances are correct.

That’s why I was asking the question I was because if designed and maintained properly out of the gate then no amount of “lugging” would damage a fluid film bearing PROVIDING that pump did its job and maintained the design force via flow at temperature.

If any of that wears however, then the potential for severe damage almost geometrically multiplies.

I have done this on reciprocating equipment like shakers, grizzlies and some pumps (which generally run steady state unlike an ICE) but never an ICE which does have a unique set of considerations not encountered in similar machines.

Do you have any of that specific information on what tolerances and ranges are built into the fluid bearing on an ICE?

 

[OM605]

Something i noticed, modern cars seem harder to lug since they all have an electronic throttle body, the ECU probably doesn't allow it to be wide open in a lugging situation.

 

[PimTac]

Something i noticed, modern cars seem harder to lug since they all have an electronic throttle body, the ECU probably doesn't allow it to be wide open in a lugging situation.

Most modern engines are constantly changing compression ratios, valve timing, fuel injection patterns, different motor cycles and such. I think the throttle body doesn’t exist on a GDI engine.

 

[Jetronic]

throttle body exists in GDI engines.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Most modern engines are constantly changing compression ratios, valve timing, fuel injection patterns, different motor cycles and such. I think the throttle body doesn’t exist on a GDI engine.

It better exist as it's the only thing that controls the air volume flow into the engine.