Home defense ammo

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I'm not at all convinced it matters, or that "high expansion" "high power" ammo will be in any way better. I use ball ammo in everything. I'd rather have reliable, consistent, understandable performance.

It worked exceptionally well in WWII and it will work well now.


What's not understandable about modern HP performance? Sure there's a chance a quality modern bullet won't expand properly but that better than guaranteeing the bullet won't expand.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I'm not at all convinced it matters, or that "high expansion" "high power" ammo will be in any way better. I use ball ammo in everything. I'd rather have reliable, consistent, understandable performance.

It worked exceptionally well in WWII and it will work well now.


What's not understandable about modern HP performance? Sure there's a chance a quality modern bullet won't expand properly but that better than guaranteeing the bullet won't expand.


Please understand, I'm not saying that +P JHP ammo is not more powerful, or that it's not more effective in some situations. I'm saying that FMJ ammo will do the job very reliably. The job is to stop an attacker, and a bad guy, getting shot with a 45ACP FMJ is very likely to stop. And, my gun is very likely to continue performing well, round after round, with FMJ.

I train with FMJ, use FMJ and understand the performance of FMJ. It really is hard to beat the reliability, repeatability and accuracy and the price of quality FMJ ammo. And, my testing shows that FMJ is somewhat more likely to make it through walls, studs, wood, doors and car windows and so on. I can't imagine a situation where I may need to shoot through something, can you? Oh, wait, yes I can. Bad guys hide behind stuff when getting shot at.

From wiki "Even in its non-expanding full metal jacket (FMJ) version, the .45 ACP cartridge has a reputation for effectiveness against human targets because its large diameter creates a deep and substantial permanent wound channel which lowers blood pressure more rapidly.[9] The wounding potential of bullets is often characterized in terms of a bullet's expanded diameter, penetration depth, and energy. Bullet energy for .45 ACP loads varies from roughly 350 to 500 ft·lbf (470 to 680 J)."

Just another note: Standard 45ACP FMJ has 27 inches penetration in ballistic gelatin, +P 45ACP HP has 11-12 inches penetration. Over penetration is not on my list of concerns. Stopping a bad guy is. Put another way, you want fast, accurate hits, what you hit them with is a secondary concern. I'm sorry but FMJ is more accurate.

 

[Tempest]

My .45's will reliably feed lead semi-wadcutters without issue. My 25 year old P226 has never had a failure to feed ANY round that was not out of spec.

Modern hollow points are designed to be very reliable and I've not had an issue with them.

Quote:
I'm sorry but FMJ is more accurate.

Highly unlikely. There is a reason why hollow points cost more, and it's not just the hole in the bullet. Defense loads from major manufactures are made to a higher standard, especially the bullets. Powders are also different.

I don't think I've ever seen a gun write up that had stock FMJ out shoot premium defense loads. At pistol defense ranges, it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[cp3]

Interesting stuff. I've always been fascinated with firearms and would love to be able to join in on the conversation but I haven't even read much about guns, other than fiction, for over a decade so I won't even speculate. I will say that I have feelings on both sides of our stricter than yours firearms laws. And I also know that it would be another costly hobby for me were it easier to own/shoot or carry a hand gun up here.

Cujet seems to have worked his choice through thoroughly and as a non-gun user I have difficulty finding fault in his penetration vs. stopping bad guy concern scale. I may find this more concerning if I was his neighbor though.

Couple of questions if I may...

Is Cujet's preference for FMJ more pertinent because of the use of the .45 round?

If as Tempest eludes to, "At pistol defense ranges, it doesn't matter anyway.", wouldn't the cost benefit of the FMJ rounds be a bonus?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
If as Tempest eludes to, "At pistol defense ranges, it doesn't matter anyway.", wouldn't the cost benefit of the FMJ rounds be a bonus?


FMJ = good for practice.

Expensive hollow points = good for stopping bad guys

 

[cp3]

Sorry, I thought you were reffering to the range at which you would use a pistol for deffense.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: cp3
Sorry, I thought you were reffering to the range at which you would use a pistol for deffense.


I was. Perhaps I'm not understanding your question correctly?

 

[pzev]

Originally Posted By: cp3
Sorry, I thought you were reffering to the range at which you would use a pistol for deffense.


He was referring to the overall lack of accuracy even experienced shooters have with pistols. The short barrel, the short sight radius, and overall short and fat bullet shape do not lend accuracy to pistols. The vast majority of all deadly handgun conflicts are going to take place within 10yds. At that distance, the overall accuracy of an individual round, whether it be FMJ or HP is moot...so using accuracy as a selling point for FMJ is pointless. Also, the most accurate pistol loads are usually always premium hollow points.

As for using FMJ's, that's just asking for trouble. If you shoot someone with a .45 FMJ, the bullet WILL penetrate their body, and it WILL have enough remaining energy to kill someone else. Hollow point bullets are designed to #1. Penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs, and #2. Expand, thereby dumping all their available energy into the target. If a bullet over penetrates, its wasting energy. Considering the lack of power in a handgun, you want all that energy being concentrated in your target, not the backstop behind your target.

Lastly, in a self defense situation, you DO NOT have justification to use force against an innocent third party. So if you are justified in shooting a "bad guy", and that bullet penetrates the bad guy and kills someone across the street, you are going to be charged with murder. The justification for using force on the "bad guy" is not available for 3rd party's that may be injured or killed as a result. So make the smart choice and pick a round that won't pass through your target and into someone else.

Finally, modern bonded HP bullets have absolutely no trouble passing through the types of barriers perps are likely to hind behind. Drywall, auto glass, furniture...doesn't matter, a bonded HP will pass through it, and will still likely expand enough in the target to limit any further penetration. Premium HP rounds have been tested extensively by government agencies the world over. So do what every law enforcement agency in the USA has done, and use quality HP bullets. They are more effective man stoppers...this has been quantitatively and qualitatively proven.


You wouldn't even shoot a deer with an FMJ...why on earth would you use one to save your life? Trying to justify such is silly, and potentially dangerous.

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: cp3
Sorry, I thought you were reffering to the range at which you would use a pistol for deffense.


I was. Perhaps I'm not understanding your question correctly?


My thought was just that if it doesn't matter then save the money on the cost of the rounds.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: pzev




Lastly, in a self defense situation, you DO NOT have justification to use force against an innocent third party. So if you are justified in shooting a "bad guy", and that bullet penetrates the bad guy and kills someone across the street, you are going to be charged with murder. The justification for using force on the "bad guy" is not available for 3rd party's that may be injured or killed as a result. So make the smart choice and pick a round that won't pass through your target and into someone else.
Never heard of that. You have a link to such a case?

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: cp3
Sorry, I thought you were reffering to the range at which you would use a pistol for deffense.


I was. Perhaps I'm not understanding your question correctly?


My thought was just that if it doesn't matter then save the money on the cost of the rounds.
He means the minute accuracy differences do not matter. Bullet performance on the target does matter.

 

[pzev]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: pzev




Lastly, in a self defense situation, you DO NOT have justification to use force against an innocent third party. So if you are justified in shooting a "bad guy", and that bullet penetrates the bad guy and kills someone across the street, you are going to be charged with murder. The justification for using force on the "bad guy" is not available for 3rd party's that may be injured or killed as a result. So make the smart choice and pick a round that won't pass through your target and into someone else.
Never heard of that. You have a link to such a case?


I should have clarified...murder being the generic charge for taking another human life. In this particular instance, it would most likely be something closer to manslaughter...depending on your states statute. As for case references, I'd need to dig through my training manuals, but in my state...its stated plainly and clearly in the penal code that the justification for using deadly force in a self defense situation does not apply to any innocent 3rd parties that are injured as a result. So, they can't charge you for the injury/death you inflicted on your attacker, but they can charge you for the injury/death you may have inflicted on a bystander (as a result of a bullet missing your target or passing through your target).
The basis of the charge would be negligence or recklessness depending on the severity of the situation, which in my state would give you criminally negligent homicide or manslaughter. Of course it would all be argued in court, but with the costs and time associated with felony court cases....its best to avoid them all together.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play on on TV, but isn't homicide the generic term for taking another human live?

I agree if you take the life of an innocent, you could be charged with manslaughter, but I don't think that would happen providing you were not reckless. On the other hand, there is a likehood approaching 100% you would be sued in civil court by an innocent's survivors, and that lawsuit would likely wreck you financially.

Back to the subject. My personal home self-protection favorite is .45 in ball, for many of the reasons Cujet mentioned. It's relatively cheap to practice with, and I'm 100% assured with aimpoint, functionality, etc. If I were using a high pressure round like .357 mag or a S&W .40, I would probably prefer hollow points.

 

[hatt]

Glad I don't live in your state pzev. In Florida and other sensible states the attacker would be charged with any injuries to innocents. I still want to see the cases. And not a case where gangbangers were shooting it out and claiming self defense.

 

[pzev]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Glad I don't live in your state pzev. In Florida and other sensible states the attacker would be charged with any injuries to innocents. I still want to see the cases. And not a case where gangbangers were shooting it out and claiming self defense.


Texas is rather sensible with regards to self defense laws.
Chapter 9, Texas Penal Code
Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility
This chapter lays out the groundwork for justified uses of force or deadly force with regards to self defense, defense of another, or defense of property. Here is a key section.

Sec. 9.05. Reckless Injury of Innocent Third person
Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for reckless injury or killing of the innocent third person.

What constitutes reckless behavior? That's up to the court and the lawyers involved, but chances are if you managed to injure a bystander during a self defense incident, someone could find a way to paint your actions as reckless. That recklessness could be based upon the ammunition used, the type of weapon used, or whether you should have taken the shot in the first place.

To bring this thread somewhat back on topic, here is something to think about.
There is plenty of established dogma surrounding over-penetration and self defense ammunition. The one thing just about everyone agrees on is that a bullet that zings through multiple targets could be potentially dangerous if one expects to use their firearm in public places to defend themselves. It wouldn't take but a mediocre prosecutor to highlight the penetration characteristics of AP or FMJ ammo with regards to soft targets. So, if the unlikely scenario of you having to use your weapon to defend yourself or another in a crowded place comes to pass, what would you rather be shooting? FMJ ammo that does less damage to an attacker and increases the likelihood of bullet pass through, or quality HP ammo that does more damage to an attacker and decreases the likelihood of bullet pass-through?
If your response is that your weapon doesn't reliably feed HP ammo, then consider using one of the polymer tipped offerings to increase reliability. In all honesty however, if this is a weapon you expect to defend your life with, perhaps getting something a bit more reliable is in order?

 

[blacklamb]

I use PDX1 in all my firearms, I figure if the FBI uses it it can be half bad. I PDX1 in .40 and .45 and love it, since they dont make it in 10mm Im going to try to find some old school black talons

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: pzev
Originally Posted By: hatt
Glad I don't live in your state pzev. In Florida and other sensible states the attacker would be charged with any injuries to innocents. I still want to see the cases. And not a case where gangbangers were shooting it out and claiming self defense.


Texas is rather sensible with regards to self defense laws.
Chapter 9, Texas Penal Code
Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility
This chapter lays out the groundwork for justified uses of force or deadly force with regards to self defense, defense of another, or defense of property. Here is a key section.

Sec. 9.05. Reckless Injury of Innocent Third person
Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for reckless injury or killing of the innocent third person.

What constitutes reckless behavior? That's up to the court and the lawyers involved, but chances are if you managed to injure a bystander during a self defense incident, someone could find a way to paint your actions as reckless. That recklessness could be based upon the ammunition used, the type of weapon used, or whether you should have taken the shot in the first place.

To bring this thread somewhat back on topic, here is something to think about.
There is plenty of established dogma surrounding over-penetration and self defense ammunition. The one thing just about everyone agrees on is that a bullet that zings through multiple targets could be potentially dangerous if one expects to use their firearm in public places to defend themselves. It wouldn't take but a mediocre prosecutor to highlight the penetration characteristics of AP or FMJ ammo with regards to soft targets. So, if the unlikely scenario of you having to use your weapon to defend yourself or another in a crowded place comes to pass, what would you rather be shooting? FMJ ammo that does less damage to an attacker and increases the likelihood of bullet pass through, or quality HP ammo that does more damage to an attacker and decreases the likelihood of bullet pass-through?
If your response is that your weapon doesn't reliably feed HP ammo, then consider using one of the polymer tipped offerings to increase reliability. In all honesty however, if this is a weapon you expect to defend your life with, perhaps getting something a bit more reliable is in order?

So no actual cases? I'm with you FMJ aren't the best choice for self defense; but there are a whole bunch of real world facts, results and testing that we can us instead of off the wall fear mongering stuff. Bullets that miss their intended target entirely are of much greater concern than a bullet that overpenetrated through the perp. Through building materials HP and FMJ both penetrate a lot.

 

[Robster]

I've scanned this thread and it ends up like many others I've seen with respect to calibers / bullet types and the discussions end up with a lot of extreme cases being cited in the interest of making a point. In reality it's much simpler-- you should carry the most powerful caliber / round that you can shoot accurately and reliably. Like discussions of engine power, have you ever wished you'd had LESS power? Same thing applies to handguns. Hollow points have more consistent stopping power in a given caliber vs. FMJ, but if an FMJ is what you shoot well, go with it.

There's been discussion about shooting through doors, walls, cars etc. and though there may be extremely rare occasions when those tactics are necessary, I would consider them to be a last resort due to low odds of success in actually hitting / stopping the threat, while expending your limited ammo.

If you shoot an intruder through a locked door, you're gonna have some 'splanin' to do to the detectives that will invariably show up to investigate. Simply put, don't shoot at anything / anyone that you haven't POSITIVELY identified as an immediate threat to your life (or somebody else's). Shooting locks and hinges off doors?--only in the movies.

It's interesting to talk about "what-if" scenarios and it's often useful to at least formulate a rough plan in your mind in case you're put in a self-defense situation, but understand that your life will be changed after an actual shooting incident--the Martin / Zimmerman case comes to mind. Justified or not, you'll be explaining everything to people who have competing motives to convict / exonerate you. . .you'll be judged in the media. . . but you'll be alive. Taking a human life should be the absolute last resort. Get good defense training and stay proficient with your weapon of choice.

Getting back to the original topic, I carry issued .40 S&W Federal 165 gr. HST in a Glock 27 for duty and home defense. My agency did all the homework in picking that round and I have confidence it'll work if ever needed.

Just my two cents. . . .

Rob
(30 years and counting in law enforcement)

 

[Falken]

Rob, most people have 30+ years of shooting experience.

You can believe all of this or not, but a few hundred rounds with a 9mm or a .45 loaded with ball ammo at a garbage dump in a sand pit will be all the proof you need.

I have a harder time finding objects with building material and household waste that stands up to ball ammo, pretty scary actually.

Penetration vs. expansion is a purely application based preference. Cover vs. concealment, the results are solely objective.

Here is what happens to a padlock:



FWIW, 32 years experience as a gun owner, hunter, and shooting in sand pits in my youth. Proud to still have all my fingers, toes, eyes, and some hearing left.

And, no, getting accidentally locked in on a logging road in the Winter with you on the wrong side of your destination should you ever freeze to death if you have a center fire rifle in the trunk. Just shoot the lock off, drag the chain to the side of the road with a 20$ bill left for the damages.

The movies aren't always wrong it seems...

But, like anything in life, there is always someone with more experience in any given situation, and I am more interested in learing as a student than being wrong as someone's teacher.

 

[Robster]

Hey Falken. . .didn't mean any offense to you. . hope none was taken.

I think cops take a more practical approach to using firearms. . .kinda like using the right tool for a given job. Need a lock removed and you ask a cop how to do it and he'll probably suggest a pry bar or other means to do it. . .the firearm would be the last resort for most cops, for a lot of reasons. . .not the least of which would be the reporting requirements for discharging your weapon.

When I made the movie reference, that was my line of thinking. . .not that it couldn't actually be done--I'm well aware of the destructive power of firearms. . .

Stay safe. .

--Rob


Originally Posted By: Falken
Rob, most people have 30+ years of shooting experience.

You can believe all of this or not, but a few hundred rounds with a 9mm or a .45 loaded with ball ammo at a garbage dump in a sand pit will be all the proof you need.

I have a harder time finding objects with building material and household waste that stands up to ball ammo, pretty scary actually.

Penetration vs. expansion is a purely application based preference. Cover vs. concealment, the results are solely objective.

Here is what happens to a padlock:



FWIW, 32 years experience as a gun owner, hunter, and shooting in sand pits in my youth. Proud to still have all my fingers, toes, eyes, and some hearing left.

And, no, getting accidentally locked in on a logging road in the Winter with you on the wrong side of your destination should you ever freeze to death if you have a center fire rifle in the trunk. Just shoot the lock off, drag the chain to the side of the road with a 20$ bill left for the damages.

The movies aren't always wrong it seems...

But, like anything in life, there is always someone with more experience in any given situation, and I am more interested in learing as a student than being wrong as someone's teacher.