Help-strange electrical problem

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I'm trying to help out a friend to whom I sold a '95 Hyundai Accent about a year ago. He is having a strange problem that we can't seem to solve. It started with the headlights occasionally glowing brighter (about once per evening drive). The alternator was tested at Autozone and determined to be "starting to go bad." It was replaced with an Autozone reconditioned unit. Shortly after, the problem returned. It was taken to an electrical mechanic who could not find anything wrong. Just recently, the battery ended up dying after 3 years (it was an Autozone battery with a 7 yr prorated warranty). Autozone replaced the battery for about 1/2 price (based on prorate). All seemed well for a couple of days, then the new battery started leaking acid. The remanufactured alternator was taken back and replaced under warranty. Again, all seemed well for a couple of days. Now the (new) battery is dead. The car starts with a jump start and runs with some pressure applied to the gas, but immediately dies when at idle. My friend is convinced it is two bad alternators in a row. I'm not so sure. What else could be causing this problem? I'm guessing some sort of electrical short somewhere, but I'm not that skilled at electrical problems and wouldn't know where to look.

Any ideas will be much appreciated!

Tim
 
Where is the voltage regulation? Built into the alternator or a separate unit? My guess would be that the lights brightened when the voltage spiked. If the voltage is intermittently going much above 14 volts, it will fry everything. Such things may be hard to find. It the car doesn't have a voltmeter, perhaps connect one and drive around and see what it does. Of course, you could fry another alternator and battery.
 
Keeping it simple...start by monitoring the voltage of the electrical system. You can take readings at the battery, or you could keep track of things by tapping the cig. lighter socket, etc. from inside the cabin.

A fully charged flooded lead-acid battery is usually held at 13.8 volts, but considering the cycling in a car and variences in ambient temperatures, it tends to be slightly higher. In my Volvo, with 30 degree F temps, the voltage initially goes as high as 14.8-15v after starting, but tappers down to around 14.2-14.4 over a 15 mile trip.

For a flooded lead-acid battery that's sitting idle, a voltage of 12.6-12.8 represents a full S.O.C. (state-of-charge). A voltage of 12 represents a near zero S.O.C..

If the voltage regulating circuitry, which I assume to be housed within the altenator itself, malfunctions in that it maintains a high voltage level independent of the batteries S.O.C., than as it approaches full S.O.C., excess gasing will result, causing loss of water in the elctrolyte. With the likelihood of having exposed plates, thermal warping and risk of gas ignition from open-air short potential, go against the life of the battery. So too does not having the battery reach a full S.O.C., for sulfation that develops on the plates as the battery is discharged can in time crystallize, effectively insulating that area of the plate from any charge contributions. The result is a battery with decreasing charge/reserve capacity.

The role of the battery is to serve as a power source for starting and emergency back-up, should the altenator fail. Once the engine is started, the altenator takes over the electrical loads, as well as for recharging the battery. Not only does the altenator's circuitry control the charge cycle for the battery by sensing it's load, but it may also adapt the "program" through temperature compensation, as a higher initial voltage is needed to overcome the increased internal resistance that the battery exibits with decreases in temperature.

Another test is to see how much current draw exists when the engine and all accessories are off. To do this, you will need a amp meter (there are many multi-meters that enable many test funtions such as voltage, amperage, resistance (ohms), etc.), and for safety, wear eye/face protection such as googles or a clear face shield.

**Before disconnecting any cable from the battery, make sure you have any security codes that are required for any equipment in the car, as they will have to be re-entered upon reconnection of the battery in order for them to operate.**

With the ignition and all the usual accessories off, disconnect the negative power cable at the battery terminal (a small spark may be noted as the ECU and any security equipment have a small current draw). Connect the amp meter between the negative cable and the battery post. again, a small spark may be noted when making the finial connection. Take a reading. Remove the amp meter and reconnect the battery cable.

I'm not sure as for what may or may not be considered as far as unusual with today's equiped vehicle, though I imagine it's in the relm of tens of milliamps (0.010+), especially if the car has an alarm system, remote car starter, etc, which are armed/on stand-by when the engine isn't operating. Much higher numbers could represent an electrical short of some resistance, or possible impending component failure with the said systems that remain "on" (make sure the car doors are closed and the dome/hood lights are off.

Anyone have more specific figures?
 
Check your alternator for voltage reading when (a) turning over your engine (b) idling (c) running down the road.

For (a), it should momentarily drops below 8V

For (b), it shall stay between 13.8VDC to no more than 14.5VDC (colder region, battery partially discharged)when charging

(c) after the battery is fully recharged, it should stay around 13.5V DC during daytime (no turning headlights on, no "custom" stereo/car alarm jobs) and the reading should be steady above 1500rpm

If you see surging between 14.5V and beyond, and assuming that your electrical wiring hasn't been altered in any way possible (again, no custom alarm job or car stereos, just plain stock car wiring), I bet your Autozone crappy reman alternator is failing.

You shall consider getting an OE new alternator or get a Bosch Reman or Hitachi brand-new alternator.

The acid leaking part on your battery is an indicator that your battery is being overcharged. Also worth noting: if you touch on the battery body when it begins to show signs of acid spillage, I bet you feel that the battery body is hot!

I have never had any luck when it comes to reman alternators (other than quailty rebuilts such as Bosch). I rebuild my own Mitsu/NipponDenso alternators and they served me well over 15 yrs avg. each(I live in the north where 8 months of winter chills are a norm).
 
Does the ECM have anything to do with the alternators output. Some more modern cars the ECM can basicly overide the built in voltage regulator. You might need to run the pins to see what signals are being sent. If this unit does not have any ECM functions controling the alternator look for any thing that could be cause surges like intermintent shorts.Check all of the cables and conetions you would not belive what a bad set of cables or a lose conection can do in the long run!!
 
I'll second what John Browning said, check the connections. Specifically, ground connections. Could an intermittent ground cause the voltage regulator circuit to "see" zero volts and max the alternator output? maybe. I'd look at the smaller ground leads, even the mounting of the regulator (if it's not integral to the alternator).
 
quote:

Originally posted by Curious Kid:
Anyone have more specific figures?

GM says that 30 milliamps is the upper limit for key off current draw.

My 1988 Mustang 5.0 has a 25 milliamp current draw.

I've also heard that the key off current draw should be 1000th of the capacity of the battery in amp-hours...that is, a 50 amp-hour car battery should have no more than a 50 milliamp key off draw.

So I'd guess anything over 50 milliamps is cause for concern, GM's ideas notwithstanding.
 
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