HDEO in heavily sludged engine

[meborder]

A while back i asked for a "go to" oil and Rotella T5 10w-30 was highly recommended. For about the same price i have found Mystik JT8 in 10w30 and 10w40. I bought some of the Mystik to try for now.

This oil will be used in Gasoline engines (i don't own any diesels)

my concern is that one of the tractors i plan to use this in is very heavily sludged. it has a long history of neglect to be sure. the PO just added some oil "once and a while" without regard to oil level, when i got it it was 5qts low on oil - it's a 7 quart system.

since i've gotten it, i keep the oil full, and only change the oil when it starts to get enough fuel dilution in the oil that it starts to lose oil pressure (3 times in 7 years). most times i don't change the filter, just drain and add fresh oil. i've been using walmart supertech oil 10w30 and trop artic as of late because that's what's cheapest.

this last time i did change the filter and actually stuck my hand down into the filter canister (it is a cartridge type filter) and found no less than 2" of sludge at the bottom of the canister. I don't know where the filtering system is even functional to be quite honest. I imagine that the rest of the engine is equally as dirty inside.

so .... the question ... what do you suppose a HDEO would do when used in an engine that is known to be very dirty?

I don't care about cleaning it up. i have no interest in even trying - there's no point. The motor needs a complete rebuild and fouls out a set of plugs in less than 8 hrs of run time (and uses about 3 quarts of oil in that time frame as well).

my only interest is keeping it going long enough to save up the cash and time it takes to rebuild it - expect another 5 years before i can even think about rebuilding it. If the HDEO would clean the motor, that's fine so long as it does no harm.

just curious if the HDEO, with it's high detergent load and ability to suspend contaminates in the oil might actually do more harm than good. perhaps i should use a PCEO like i have in the past? maybe it makes no difference?

interested in your thoughts!
thanks in advance!

mike

 

[SuperDave456]

Use HEDO, and plenty of filter changes.

The issue will be something working itself loose and blocking an important oil passage and the engine starving itself.

Depending on how warm it is up there you may want to stick with a 15w40 HEDO. It will survive fuel dillution better and have a very high soot loading ability, which should work well with sludge.

Lots of filter changes and lots of short Oil Change Intervals are the key here.

 

[Garak]

The short OCIs with 15w-40 sounds sensible. It may do some cleaning. You obviously don't expect miracles, and that's correct, but any cleaning that gets done through oil changes will save grief at rebuild time.

 

[901Memphis]

You need to change the filter more often for sure. That is the only way you're removing contamination from the system. I would suggest a yearly oil and filter change also to remove the bottom end contamination. I pains me to know how your treating that engine voluntarily!

 

[SOHCman]

+1 for a 15w-40 like rotella. It may even help with consumption being thicker.

 

[meborder]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
You need to change the filter more often for sure. That is the only way you're removing contamination from the system. I would suggest a yearly oil and filter change also to remove the bottom end contamination. I pains me to know how your treating that engine voluntarily!


7 years of good maintenance cannot undo 40 years of bad.

the damage was done long before i took ownership. it needed a complete rebuild a decade before i bought it.

 

[meborder]

Originally Posted By: SuperDave456
Use HEDO, and plenty of filter changes.

The issue will be something working itself loose and blocking an important oil passage and the engine starving itself.

Depending on how warm it is up there you may want to stick with a 15w40 HEDO. It will survive fuel dillution better and have a very high soot loading ability, which should work well with sludge.

Lots of filter changes and lots of short Oil Change Intervals are the key here.


That's my biggest concern, that the detergents in the oil will free up the gunk too quickly and plug something up, at which point i'm screwed.

i don't see how the filter can even be working. it looks to be some kind of bypass type filtering system with a oil line at the top and one at the bottom. the one at the bottom is covered in gunk that i can't get out. I changed it, but i'm thinking that the filter lines are probably blocked.

i just don't want to plug up an internal passage and starve a bearing or the cam.

if there's any chance that an HDEO will clean it out and plug something up, i'd rather just stick to PCEO and not take the chance.

 

[901Memphis]

Got any pictures of the bypass setup?

Once you plug the spin on filter the engine filter will bypass the element and circulate everything through the canister of the filter.

 

[meborder]

i can take a pic tomorrow.

it's a different setup for sure. it is not a spin on type filter, but rather a filter cartridge that sits in a canister. The top lid of the canister is removed and the filter cartridge is dropped into the canister from the top. The canister lid is held in place by a nut in the center and is sealed along the perimeter by a rubber gasket between the canister body and the rim of the canister lid. (hard to explain)

the canister is bolted to the side of the engine block, and there is an oil line at the top and one at the bottom. Presumably one feeds unfiltered oil to the canister from a pressurized oil galley, and the other returns the filtered to the block.

i guess what i meant by it appears to be a "bypass setup" is that the filter is just in the system to offer filtration, but the oil system is not fed from the filtered oil such as you would find in a modern engine.

now that i think about it, it must be functional to some degree, because when i changed the filter this last time, i didn't get the gasket seated and fresh oil came spewing out of the canister between the lid and body from the misplaced gasket. then i remembered having the same problem last time and i had to seal the gasket to the lid on both sides with some bearing grease to hold it in place until i could get the lid back on tight to seal it up.

but i stuck my hand down into the filter canister and there was at least 2 inches of muck at the bottom. the canister has a drain plug where you can drain the oil from the canister, but i can't get the plug out. it appears to be seized in there beyond my willpower to risk breaking it trying to get it out.

i suppose the oil return could be plugged, and the canister just gets pressurized without any flow, but it's really hard to know. i know the oil will flow into the canister housing (witnessed by the oil pushing past the gasket), but i have no idea if it can flow out. the filter i took out didn't look "dirty", but i don't know how you tell a filter that is working from one that is not.

i'm really just wanting to make sure i don't do more harm than good by trying to do the "right thing"

 

[901Memphis]

You can use a HDEO as long as you keep a closer eye on the filter to make sure its not plugging up. If its loosening anything you will know it.

You could always pull the pan and manually remove any large sludge if your able to.

Are the filters expensive for that model?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: meborder
That's my biggest concern, that the detergents in the oil will free up the gunk too quickly and plug something up, at which point i'm screwed.

Don't worry about that at all. My F-150 was in similar condition when I got it, and lots of short oil change intervals helped. Fresh oil is unlikely to be releasing a bunch of clumps. Just stay away from the solvent flushes.

 

[meborder]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
You can use a HDEO as long as you keep a closer eye on the filter to make sure its not plugging up. If its loosening anything you will know it.

You could always pull the pan and manually remove any large sludge if your able to.

Are the filters expensive for that model?


Purolator L30090
Wix 51090
Fram C230

looks to be about $8-$10 if you can even get one. It appears that finding them is more problematic than paying for them. Wix an purolator are not even available on amazon. they have the fram though.

i hadn't thought about pulling the pan, i suppose that's an option but i don't know where i'd get a gasket. i suppose i could just use RTV. In my experience, though, if it is working you leave it alone. doing otherwise is a good way to turn a running tractor into a non-running problem.

 

[roadrunner1]

FleetGuard LF 526 crosses into what you posted, and should be readily available.

 

[meborder]

here's some pics of the oil filter canister.

As you can see, it is a canister bolted onto the side of the block.

there is an oil line at the top and one at the bottom.

the filter element is inserted from the top by loosening the nut at the top, and the lid comes off. there is a rubber gasket between the lid and the canister rim.

the drain plug for the canister can be seen here, but i can't get it to come loose.

when i stuck my hand down in the canister, the sludge felt like it came up to the top of the bottom band.

just for fun, here's the old beast:

i took the front tin off a couple years ago to adjust the steering gear. it needs to be replaced so i never put the tin back on ... never replaced the steering box either. might as well put the tin back on

 

[roadrunner1]

Your filter assembly was common for the timeframe of your tractor.

I have several pieces of equipment with the same type of bypass filtration. You should be able to vice-grip the pipe-plug drain out.

If you have a Deere dealer near you they handle FleetGuard and if the element isn't on the shelf they can get it for you.

You want to clean out the canister and make sure the drain line isn't plugged. I suggest removing the canister and working on it on the bench as its only 2 oil lines and a couple of mounting bolts.

 

[ironman_gq]

You could take out the filter element and suck out as much oil as you can from the canister and then scrape out the crud and clean it up. Does the output side of the filter go back to the oil pan? If thats the case I would try and blow out the line and flush with gasoline.

 

[cronk]

My Ford 9N has a similar setup. I would probably use an inexpensive 15w40 hdeo. If you can't get the filter drain out, suck as much out with a suction gun and wipe it out with a clean rag. I would probably change oil and filter at least 2 times a year if its that dirty.
My neighbor had some Masseys, they had Continental engines. Do you know if that's what you have?

 

[cronk]

Answered my own question, according to tractor data.com, its a Continental 259 4 cylinder.

 

[meborder]

it's actually a 44 special, which got a bored out version of the 260 cid. the special has a 277 cid (4.5L) inline 4 cylinder.

it could be a continental, but i thought only the diesels and the later 444 with the 6 cylinder gas were continentials.... but i could be wrong.


there's a lot of good discussion on how to clean it up, but i'm really not to worried about it ... so long as a hdeo doesn't do any harm, i think i'll use that in the future.

actually, from this point on, the only time it will get used is to run the manure spreader. i envision that to be 2 or 3 days a year for the rest of it's life.

maybe local parades if i ever restore it, but that might be my retirement project (20 years from now).