Have you heard about this EV study??

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SubieRubyRoo

SubieRubyRoo

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I just had to shake my head. Unthinkable!

Daily Mail UK said:
Volvo revealed in 2021 that the emission from the production of electric cars can be up to 70 per cent higher than petrol models and said it would require between 30,000 and 68,400 miles for an EV to become greener overall, which typically takes four to nine years.

This is chiefly due to the batteries used to power electric cars. They require raw materials such as cobalt and lithium that need to be mined in places such as Africa and South America before being transported across the globe.

The environmental toll of EV manufacturing led actor Rowan Atkinson to recently claim he felt ‘a little duped’ by electric cars as he urged people to keep hold of their petrol vehicles for longer.
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nes-environmental-benefit-EVs-never-felt.html
 
Not surprising to me.

Also, I watched a reasonably well presented TV show about two years ago that specifically admitted the "greenest" thing you can do is keep your current modern car and just make sure it runs well. New cars (liquid fueled or EV) create a HUGE strain on all manner of resources; carbon emissions, precious metals, production energy, etc. Driving an existing modern car (something made in the last two decades) which is in good operating condition is actually the least destructive thing to do to the environment.
 
Did not read but it seems correct to me--as in, I had already seen articles about how EV's have a higher cost up front (CO2 and otherwise) than their ICE counterparts.

To dwenton3's point, perhaps we should press for legislation that would half the amount of salt being used on our roads each year. That is no small car killer in the rust belt (then we could work on getting simpler cars that cost less to repair).
 
VolksWagen is laying off 6K workers and shutting down 4 palnt in Germany as the sale of EVs is taking 30% below sales expectation.
The main reason is that not only one pays a LOT more for an EV, but over 2 years the depreciation is 50% vs ICE 15-20%.
Of course this is out of the UK, here the greens will never allow this to be broadcasted.
 
supton said:
To dwenton3's point, perhaps we should press for legislation that would half the amount of salt being used on our roads each year. That is no small car killer in the rust belt (then we could work on getting simpler cars that cost less to repair).
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The local government has been using less salt on the roads and more sand.

Results are glare ice in the intersections and more risk of collisions with people sliding through.

I vote for using salt for safety, rust is a secondary concern imo.
 
Pelican said:
VolksWagen is laying off 6K workers and shutting down 4 palnt in Germany as the sale of EVs is taking 30% below sales expectation.
The main reason is that not only one pays a LOT more for an EV, but over 2 years the depreciation is 50% vs ICE 15-20%.
Of course this is out of the UK, here the greens will never allow this to be broadcasted.
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People don't blindly buy cars, well most don't at least. There are EVs that are selling well and EVs that aren't. If the cars aren't good, they aren't buying them. I love VW but at least at this time I'm not going to them for an EV. I tried that once and couldn't even secure a car after 8 months. I will continue to buy ICE cars from them. I'll go elsewhere for EVs for now.
 
I don't really see the issue? Since the average lifespan of a vehicle is more than four to nine years, or 30k-68k miles, they will be more green in the end.

I don't own one, not really in a hurry to do so, but in some areas where fuel price is high and electricity cost is relatively cheap, they are FAR cheaper to operate. It's not even close.
 
dnewton3 said:
Not surprising to me.

Also, I watched a reasonably well presented TV show about two years ago that specifically admitted the "greenest" thing you can do is keep your current modern car and just make sure it runs well. New cars (liquid fueled or EV) create a HUGE strain on all manner of resources; carbon emissions, precious metals, production energy, etc. Driving an existing modern car (something made in the last two decades) which is in good operating condition is actually the least destructive thing to do to the environment.
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This has been true for a long time. Along with keeping cars tuned and tire air pressure set correctly to gain fuel efficiency.
It took developement (and sales) to get cars to modern car efficiency.
 
Jimmy_Russells said:
I don't really see the issue? Since the average lifespan of a vehicle is more than four to nine years, or 30k-68k miles, they will be more green in the end.

I don't own one, not really in a hurry to do so, but in some areas where fuel price is high and electricity cost is relatively cheap, they are FAR cheaper to operate. It's not even close.
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Remember there will be a HUGE negative impact with every time the battery pack is replaced. They don’t really address that, but it’s definitely a negative if we’re going to continue playing this “green” crap.

Let the market supply whatever people want to buy. Consumers will naturally gravitate to the most efficient thing for their needs.
 
There is no such thing as 100% green.
The question is more complicated than that.
PHEV are probably the solution for a long time. Politicians, especially in Europe, will have to backtrack a lot of decisions.
EV comes into play if home charging is possible, solar panels etc. EV alone will require a lot of energy, and without going nuclear, it is IMO impossible to do it.
We are still far from EV being mainstream. BMW, two years ago, said that they are keeping ICE at least until 2050. There is a reason for that.
 
SubieRubyRoo said:
Remember there will be a HUGE negative impact with every time the battery pack is replaced.
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Most manufacturers are shooting for 10-20% battery degradation at ten years. The majority of these vehicles will never have the battery replaced.

I do agree that most people will tend to buy what is more economical.
 
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Not surprising........ it seems the "green" agenda decisions are fueled more from "feel good" emotion than logic or facts (among other things that can't be mentioned or the thread will get shut down).
Google SF6 gas, it's being mass produced. Per kg, it's 23,700 times worse than CO2. It's everywhere, wind power, switching stations, electronics manufacturing.
Right now in Europe the SF6 gas emissions are increasing at a rate equivalent to 1.2 million cars on the road yearly. You can even find this information on the US EPA website but no one seems to care or has thought this out.
 
JeffKeryk said:
This has been true for a long time. Along with keeping cars tuned and tire air pressure set correctly to gain fuel efficiency.
It took developement (and sales) to get cars to modern car efficiency.
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No news here.

Keeping what you got is always the greenest and usually cheapest way to go.

Jason Fenske at engineered explained where he thought payback was and did pretty good job on the math.
 
CarDoc66 said:
Not surprising........ it seems the "green" agenda decisions are fueled more from "feel good" emotion than logic or facts (among other things that can't be mentioned or the thread will get shut down).
Google SF6 gas, it's being mass produced. Per kg, it's 23,700 times worse than CO2. It's everywhere, wind power, switching stations, electronics manufacturing.
Right now in Europe the SF6 gas emissions are increasing at a rate equivalent to 1.2 million cars on the road yearly. You can even find this information on the US EPA website but no one seems to care or has thought this out.
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There is no such thing as 100% green. If you have to make something, you are polluting.
That being said, if you can lower amount of pollution, you do that. This is not a zero-sum game.
LA from 70's is a perfect example. You do not say: hey, let's not do anything bcs. we cannot eliminate 100% greenhouse gases.
CO2 is nasty bcs. greenhouse effect. There is no way around that. Diesels were a very good solution to it, but then VW decided to cheat...
 
Pelican said:
VolksWagen is laying off 6K workers and shutting down 4 palnt in Germany as the sale of EVs is taking 30% below sales expectation.
The main reason is that not only one pays a LOT more for an EV, but over 2 years the depreciation is 50% vs ICE 15-20%.
Of course this is out of the UK, here the greens will never allow this to be broadcasted.
Click to expand...

It's not just Volkswagen. EV car sales across the board while still growing are not meeting either manufacturers forecasts or government targets. There is the beginning of a backlash in the UK and in Europe against the unrealistic targets for phasing out IC cars and in fact a backlash against the whole net zero thing. People are beginning to realise just how expensive net zero is going to be. If the targets for cars aren't bad enough, our government is banning the use of natural gas for heating homes to be replaced by air sourced heat pumps. This is going down like a lead balloon because heat pumps cost a minimum 3 times as much as a gas boiler, are more expensive to run and in fact people are finding they they don't work that well either. The result is that heat pump installations are a million miles away from the government target.

Taken overall, every aspects of net zero planning is looking very ill thought out. Emissions regulations are resulting in cars getting bigger and heavier with of course correspondingly bigger carbon footprints. Stupidly unrealistic EU emissions regulations for IC engines are forcing manufactures to stop making small cars altogether because they will cost so much to manufacture that nobody will buy them.

People will support the idea that we must reduce emissions and we have been doing that year on year. What they are getting fed up with is the lack of pragmatism from politicians who are setting completely unrealistic targets on a whim and a prayer, basically for the sake of virtue signalling.
 
barryh said:
It's not just Volkswagen. EV car sales across the board while still growing are not meeting either manufacturers forecasts or government targets. There is the beginning of a backlash in the UK and in Europe against the unrealistic targets for phasing out IC cars and in fact a backlash against the whole net zero thing. People are beginning to realise just how expensive net zero is going to be. If the targets for cars aren't bad enough, our government is banning the use of natural gas for heating homes to be replaced by air sourced heat pumps. This is going down like a lead balloon because heat pumps cost a minimum 3 times as much as a gas boiler, are more expensive to run and in fact people are finding they they don't work that well either. The result is that heat pump installations are a million miles away from the government target.

Taken overall, every aspects of net zero planning is looking very ill thought out. Emissions regulations are resulting in cars getting bigger and heavier with of course correspondingly bigger carbon footprints. Stupidly unrealistic EU emissions regulations for IC engines are forcing manufactures to stop making small cars altogether because they will cost so much to manufacture that nobody will buy them.
y
People will support the idea that we must reduce emissions and we have been doing that year on year. What they are getting fed up with is the lack of pragmatism from politicians who are setting completely unrealistic targets on a whim and a prayer, basically for the sake of virtue signalling.
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It doesn't help that most companies suck at handling new car deliveries and when it comes to EVs there's only a few trusted sources. I tried to buy a VW ID.4 for my wife and after waiting 8 months we decided to buy a Tesla instead. I love VW for many things, but I don't think EVs are their strong suit. I don't think it's lack of acceptance of EVs, but people aren't going to buy cars they don't like or stick around in droves for long new car arrival wait times. If it was lack of EV acceptance across the board Tesla wouldn't be hitting the sales figures they are. Sure, not everyone wants an EV, but it sounds like those that do want them are able to get them from certain outlets.

It's also not fair to assume that everyone eventually will buy a new car and for those that always buy used don't have many used EVs sitting around to buy. I know where 3 are sitting now for sale, but 2 of them are over $70k and typically that's beyond most budgets. There's also plenty of people who bought non EVs over the last few years that may not buy another car for 10-15 years. I think what these governments fail to realize or don't care about is that an existing car is always greener than ordering a new car to be built.
 
SubieRubyRoo said:
Remember there will be a HUGE negative impact with every time the battery pack is replaced. They don’t really address that, but it’s definitely a negative if we’re going to continue playing this “green” crap.

Let the market supply whatever people want to buy. Consumers will naturally gravitate to the most efficient thing for their needs.
Click to expand...
We're just guessing. People looking for all sorts of reasons to take a dump on EVs.
 
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