Group III Synthetics better than Group IV?
- Thread starter Ron AKA
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Hold on Ron... What evidence is there that Redline causes users to get less output from their engines? Less compared to what other oils? Are you claiming that this happens with all Redline products (street oils, race oils, trans fluids), which? Your assertion will, I expect, come as a surprise to Redline, as they advertise the opposite result.
That was Ron's first epic thread, "Redline compromises fuel economy and horsepower".
It was a multipage thriller, I'm suprised you missed it?
It was a multipage thriller, I'm suprised you missed it?
Been a tad busy lately. I'll go check it out. . .
Then they may get a little comfort, but read the testimonials and I would suggest they think they are getting a little more - 5-10% increase in HP!
Perhaps not all oils, just the ones that have relatively high HTHS for the grade. For example I recall their 5w30 has about 3.4 or so compared to the GF-4/SM oils which typically have close to the minimum limit of 2.6. I agree many think to the contrary.
Here's where the focus on one spec comes out again. HTHS.
According to Ron, lower is better, although according to oil companies and the standards, higher is better.
According to Ron, lower is better, although according to oil companies and the standards, higher is better.
I have briefly reviewed the materials in the "first epic." I remain convinced that HT/HS viscosity is but one of many factors which have bearing (pun semi-intended) on the characteristics of a finished oil. Such characteristics would, of course, include its impact on engine output and fuel economy. There's just way too much going on with respect to the oil and the operation of an engine, especially in the "real world" to broadly generalize about how one particular feature, HT/HS vis or whatever, will impact one or another performance parameter. And while I'll be the first to admit that I'm anything but "all knowing," I have not seen any indication that Redline products actually drag down either engine output or fuel economy, as compared to any other oils. It's an interesting theory, but has anyone actually reported a measured hp/tq or mpg loss as a result of a change to Redline?
I've run Redline a lot in the past and have compared it to many other oils in high performance applications. It is the best I've found for High Performance engines as far as temperature reduction, smoothness, ability to allow the engine to rev-up quickly, anti-foaming ability, quick engine starting and engine cleanliness. But I must be wrong. My dozens (or hundreds) of mileage calculations must have been in error and I DIDN'T see either an improvement or no change in mileage on several applications. The aforementioned results must have been because I wanted Redline to be better than the rest, even though I don't sell Redline, nor have any ties to the company besides being a customer. I should really study the specifications more instead of actually running the product and seeing the REAL results and base all decisions on black and white theories, not reality.
I'm sorry for my sarcasm, really I am, but to condemn a product based upon 1 or 2 attributes, out of scores of other attributes, is just wrong. Especially when that product is superior to most. I'm not saying that everything I own gets Redline or that it is the best for every situation. But for high performance vehicles/engines it has definitely proven itself to me. I use Amsoil for other vehicles and would use Amsoil for long-drains vs. Redline. But for normal drains, Redline would likely outperform just about every thing on the market. Is it needed? Is it cost-effective? Those are individual questions for individual situations. If I owned a beater or a lease vehicle I would use a Grp I or Grp II. There is no best oil or best group. There is just "the best for a certain application/wallet/environment/engine/etc."
I'm sorry for my sarcasm, really I am, but to condemn a product based upon 1 or 2 attributes, out of scores of other attributes, is just wrong. Especially when that product is superior to most. I'm not saying that everything I own gets Redline or that it is the best for every situation. But for high performance vehicles/engines it has definitely proven itself to me. I use Amsoil for other vehicles and would use Amsoil for long-drains vs. Redline. But for normal drains, Redline would likely outperform just about every thing on the market. Is it needed? Is it cost-effective? Those are individual questions for individual situations. If I owned a beater or a lease vehicle I would use a Grp I or Grp II. There is no best oil or best group. There is just "the best for a certain application/wallet/environment/engine/etc."
Riznight on, brotha.
I use RedLine power steering fluid, and I swear I can feel and extra 10 to 12 horsepower.
When do the oil companies start selling Group III "synthetics" at a lower cost then, since they apparently cost much less to refine?quote:
Originally posted by bruce381:
Hey I'm not digging as grave I agree with the CP website.quote:
Originally posted by avette:
So Terry and Bruce are not experts?quote:
Originally posted by Hirev:
Holy cow sounds like some people here are digging a grave for PAOs. Here a little something from some experts, to read on Group III vs Group IV.
I find it hard to believe judging by what I've seen so far on this site.
Just that for MOST applications a GPIII like Chevron or Pet Canada will work fine. I use PAO in Ultra low temp Ultra long life trouble free areas and I like them they are the best. BUT for a run of the mill 5/20 a GPIII will work fine it is very application depedant. PAO also will run great in compresor oils aswell.
Technicaly is a pure PAO better than a GPIII YES no doubt at all.
But depending on use/formulation/additive treat a GPIII maybe as good at a lower cost.
Simple
Ron Said:
""But, I'll bet they think they are getting more HP by using it when in fact they will be getting less"""
Trust me side by side dyno stand testing shows Red Line compared to a "lower" HTHS oil of same type/vis grade and in most all cases a increase in HP and certainly NO decrease in HP I have seen it have you?
HTHS dif of 2.9 to 3.4 IMHO will not make a hill of beans difference in HP much more involved than that for one can you say Coeffeicent of friction or anti scuff or metal wetting and more.
If the HTHS of Red Line 5w30 bothers you DUH use there lower vis grade 5/20 and get protection like the 5w30 but have your HP increase to.
bruce
""But, I'll bet they think they are getting more HP by using it when in fact they will be getting less"""
Trust me side by side dyno stand testing shows Red Line compared to a "lower" HTHS oil of same type/vis grade and in most all cases a increase in HP and certainly NO decrease in HP I have seen it have you?
HTHS dif of 2.9 to 3.4 IMHO will not make a hill of beans difference in HP much more involved than that for one can you say Coeffeicent of friction or anti scuff or metal wetting and more.
If the HTHS of Red Line 5w30 bothers you DUH use there lower vis grade 5/20 and get protection like the 5w30 but have your HP increase to.
bruce
""When do the oil companies start selling Group III "synthetics" at a lower cost then, since they apparently cost much less to refine?""
They do now try any peto canada GPIII PCMO or even Chevron ISOyn stuff etc. compared to say Mobil 1.
bruce
They do now try any peto canada GPIII PCMO or even Chevron ISOyn stuff etc. compared to say Mobil 1.
bruce
Good point. There are guys racing C5's running Redline 5w-20 with great results.
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