"Gravel Traps"

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: geeman789
And what is the efficiency rating when the filter is in by-pass mode... which it is every time you start a cold engine, or get up in the revs...? Don't kid yourself, your filter runs in bypass mode to some degree FREQUENTLY.


Not true according to member Jim Allen on-board testing and data collection. Filers bypass way less than you think. Sure if you fire up an engine at zero degrees F and hammer the throttle it's gonna go into bypass, but if you keep the revs down until the oil gets hot it probably will rarely go into bypass.

And once the oil is at full operating temperature, the delta-p across the filter is usually way below the bypass valve setting - even if you were driving around all day long at red line. Here's an example of that.

Link: PureOne Flow vs PSID Data

 

[geeman789]

Do you really believe that , for example, M1 0w40 , at 75 cSt at 40 * c, flows adequately thru the typical paper filter element... and it gets way thicker as we drop from 40 * c, how about winter where I live ... where - 20 * c ( 0 * F) is average...

Filters have a bypass for a reason... even FRAM brags about there bypass valve surviving a million cycles... why is that... if the filter RARELY bypasses...

Thick oil and a poor bypass valve equals torn filter media, or burst/ failed filters... the bypass valve is the most important part of any filter... flow trumps filtration, every time...

However, the usual failure mode is torn media, which is invisible to most owners, and usually harmless as well. Which leads us back to the question of... how important is the average oil filters efficiency in the grand scheme of engine life...?

Not very.

 

[geeman789]

The above link clearly shows a graph using cold oil ( 5w30 at 34 *f), that shows flow rates as low as 2 to 3 GPM show rapidly increasing PSID, exceeding the typical bypass setting of the average oil filter...

What is the filter doing in this scenario...?

Cold starts... by-pass mode. That is how it is designed to work.

 

[ZeeOSix]

geeman - a few of comments for you to ponder.

1) If an oil filter media can't take at least the delta-p that the bypass valve is set to, then the filter is not designed very well, or even correctly for that matter. If an oil filter tears the media due to delta-p less than the bypass valve setting, then something is wrong.

2) When the oil is thicker, the oil pump's pressure relieve valve kicks in much easier to limit the oil pressure out of the pump. That's then the oiling system's volumetric flow dependency goes from a positive displacement mode to a pressure mode. If the oil pump's pressure relief valve works correctly, the total flow volume flowing through the filter is greatly reduced. This in turn, keeps the delta-p at a manageable level in the filter, even when the oil is cold and thick.

3) Our member Jim Allen has measured cold start-ups with pressure gauges on his truck, and has posted the results here a few times. He rarely saw filter bypass events. And as the data from Purolator shows, you couldn't even get close to bypass with hot oil unless you were running some super insane aftermarket high volume output oil pump.

4) Guys who have talked to Fram engineers (on the Lab tours, etc) have said that those Fram engineers verified that bypass events are much less than most people think, due to cold start-ups. Of course, there is more danger of a bypass event as the filter loads up with debris however ... as we all know.

 

[boxcartommie22]

simplistic, that is incorrect k&p makes pure power filter. they have since pure power beginning.

 

[simplistic]

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
simplistic, that is incorrect k&p makes pure power filter. they have since pure power beginning.



Check their site... They have authorized k&n to sell their product that has been rebadged for k&n.

Wouldn't the location of the pressure re leaf valve determine just exactly how it functions? Take the durmax, the pressure releaf valve is not on the pump at all. It is located on the right main galley. Which means that the valve only functions after all the bearings, oil cooling jet's etc have "used" the flow of oil. Wouldn't that make it a volume re-leaver not at pressure releaver.. or is that one in the same?

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ WT

 

[boxcartommie22]

my mistake k&p engineering make other companies stainless filters not pure power. I had some people tell me they did not like the pure power filter. it was hard to work with therefore , went to k&p engineering which is the best of the industry.

pure power makes k&n filters

 

[simplistic]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
geeman - a few of comments for you to ponder.

1) If an oil filter media can't take at least the delta-p that the bypass valve is set to, then the filter is not designed very well, or even correctly for that matter. If an oil filter tears the media due to delta-p less than the bypass valve setting, then something is wrong.

2) When the oil is thicker, the oil pump's pressure relieve valve kicks in much easier to limit the oil pressure out of the pump. That's then the oiling system's volumetric flow dependency goes from a positive displacement mode to a pressure mode. If the oil pump's pressure relief valve works correctly, the total flow volume flowing through the filter is greatly reduced. This in turn, keeps the delta-p at a manageable level in the filter, even when the oil is cold and thick.

3) Our member Jim Allen has measured cold start-ups with pressure gauges on his truck, and has posted the results here a few times. He rarely saw filter bypass events. And as the data from Purolator shows, you couldn't even get close to bypass with hot oil unless you were running some super insane aftermarket high volume output oil pump.

4) Guys who have talked to Fram engineers (on the Lab tours, etc) have said that those Fram engineers verified that bypass events are much less than most people think, due to cold start-ups. Of course, there is more danger of a bypass event as the filter loads up with debris however ... as we all know.




Wouldn't the location of the pressure relive valve determine just exactly how it functions?

Take the durmax, the pressure releaf valve is not on the pump at all. It is located in the right main galley in the front cover (facing the flex-plate or left facing the front of the engine). Which means that the valve only functions after all the bearings, oil cooling jet's etc have "used" the flow of oil. Wouldn't that make it a volume reducer/reliever and not at pressure reliever.

 

[simplistic]

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
my mistake k&p engineering make other companies stainless filters not pure power. I had some people tell me they did not like the pure power filter. it was hard to work with therefore , went to k&p engineering which is the best of the industry.

pure power makes k&n filters


My mistake also, I misread and thought you put k&n not k&p. I didn't see that till I reread your post.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: simplistic
Wouldn't the location of the pressure relive valve determine just exactly how it functions?

Take the durmax, the pressure releaf valve is not on the pump at all. It is located in the right main galley in the front cover (facing the flex-plate or left facing the front of the engine). Which means that the valve only functions after all the bearings, oil cooling jet's etc have "used" the flow of oil. Wouldn't that make it a volume reducer/reliever and not at pressure reliever.


I'm not familiar with the Duramax engines, but if indeed the oiling system's pressure relief valve is at the end of the oiling system, and it uses a positive displacement oil pump, then I don't see how it could regulate the pump's flow that has already gone through the engine's oiling circuit. Kind of too late to try and control flow volume when the volume has already gone through the system.

It could regulate just the oil pressure, but not the flow. The positive displacement oil pump is going to force every bit of volume that leaves the pump, and the pressure regulator at the end of the system is basically a variable orifice to control the pressure between the pump and the sump.

You have a link to a schematic & description of this oiling system?

 

[simplistic]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
geeman - a few of comments for you to ponder.

1) If an oil filter media can't take at least the delta-p that the bypass valve is set to, then the filter is not designed very well, or even correctly for that matter. If an oil filter tears the media due to delta-p less than the bypass valve setting, then something is wrong.

2) When the oil is thicker, the oil pump's pressure relieve valve kicks in much easier to limit the oil pressure out of the pump. That's then the oiling system's volumetric flow dependency goes from a positive displacement mode to a pressure mode. If the oil pump's pressure relief valve works correctly, the total flow volume flowing through the filter is greatly reduced. This in turn, keeps the delta-p at a manageable level in the filter, even when the oil is cold and thick.

3) Our member Jim Allen has measured cold start-ups with pressure gauges on his truck, and has posted the results here a few times. He rarely saw filter bypass events. And as the data from Purolator shows, you couldn't even get close to bypass with hot oil unless you were running some super insane aftermarket high volume output oil pump.

4) Guys who have talked to Fram engineers (on the Lab tours, etc) have said that those Fram engineers verified that bypass events are much less than most people think, due to cold start-ups. Of course, there is more danger of a bypass event as the filter loads up with debris however ... as we all know.


My post was in response to this post, specifically #2. Not all engines are designed the same and the durmax is used to make a point. All the oil has to flow through the filter before it reaches the relief valve.
I have a diagram,bad news it's in a Haynes durmax book and I have no way to post. I found a link for the diagram, but it does not explain each point that is marked in the system.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yes, not all engines are designed the same ... but the majority of the vehicles on the road have a pressure relief valve that controls the pressure and hence the volume of oil coming out of the pump before the oil goes through the filter & engine when the relief valve is operating (as I described in 2) in my post above).

Originally Posted By: simplistic
My post was in response to this post, specifically #2. Not all engines are designed the same and the durmax is used to make a point. All the oil has to flow through the filter before it reaches the relief valve.I have a diagram,bad news it's in a Haynes durmax book and I have no way to post. I found a link for the diagram, but it does not explain each point that is marked in the system.


That's pretty much what I described above in my last post. If the pressure relief/control valve is located at the "end" of the oiling system and works as a "variable orifice" to control pressure, then all the oil volume that leaves the pump will go through the filter and engine, and only the pressure is controlled ... no oil volume is controlled with a setup like that.