I own a newer diesel, and with it came a DOC and DPF. I was able to order a quadzilla programmer last month which enabled me to remove the "regen" function on the ECM. Anyways, companies like edge have been fined upwards of $500,000 by the epa and have discontinued their line of programmers that remove DPF components. Now, recently, quadzillas website is offline and rumors say they will have a new product line just minus the "off road" tune which deletes the DPF. It looks like I got mine just in time! im enjoying better mileage and a great sound from my truck. But now for anyone else it appears they will have quite a challenge doing the same thing.
Government emmission laws.. dpf deletion
- Thread starter Dr_No
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Ah, so nice to live in a country with no emission laws.
DOC DPF and "regen"? What do these stand for, I don't speak diesel I guess.
Smoky
Smoky
Not sure on "DOC" but DPF is Diesel Particulate Filter. It's job is to catch all the particulates (soot) that is in diesel exhaust. Once it fills up, it goes into a mode where it burns off the soot--this mode is called the "regnerate" cycle. The unit kinda sorta looks like a catalytic convertor; and it gets very hot while burning off the soot. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the engine will retard timing and inject diesel fuel late, so that the exhaust gases out of the motor get very hot--so that the combustion takes place in the DPF instead, burning off the soot.
IIRC the driving cycle has an impact on how often regens take place. Light driving causes more cycles. Hard driving, or lots of towing (again, "hard" on the engine) require less cycles: more heat, less soot. Something like that. Or maybe not, I was never interested in getting a vehicle with a DPF.
I forget, how many miles are DPF's rated for? I thought I read someplace that they do fill up with ash and may need periodic replacement--like so many miles after the mandated emissions warrenty was up (120kmiles).
IIRC the driving cycle has an impact on how often regens take place. Light driving causes more cycles. Hard driving, or lots of towing (again, "hard" on the engine) require less cycles: more heat, less soot. Something like that. Or maybe not, I was never interested in getting a vehicle with a DPF.
I forget, how many miles are DPF's rated for? I thought I read someplace that they do fill up with ash and may need periodic replacement--like so many miles after the mandated emissions warrenty was up (120kmiles).
Originally Posted By: Dr_No
I own a newer diesel, and with it came a DOC and DPF. I was able to order a quadzilla programmer last month which enabled me to remove the "regen" function on the ECM. Anyways, companies like edge have been fined upwards of $500,000 by the epa and have discontinued their line of programmers that remove DPF components. Now, recently, quadzillas website is offline and rumors say they will have a new product line just minus the "off road" tune which deletes the DPF. It looks like I got mine just in time! im enjoying better mileage and a great sound from my truck. But now for anyone else it appears they will have quite a challenge doing the same thing.
If it is illegal for them to make and sell them it is for you to use them. Be careful you don't get caught and fined.
I own a newer diesel, and with it came a DOC and DPF. I was able to order a quadzilla programmer last month which enabled me to remove the "regen" function on the ECM. Anyways, companies like edge have been fined upwards of $500,000 by the epa and have discontinued their line of programmers that remove DPF components. Now, recently, quadzillas website is offline and rumors say they will have a new product line just minus the "off road" tune which deletes the DPF. It looks like I got mine just in time! im enjoying better mileage and a great sound from my truck. But now for anyone else it appears they will have quite a challenge doing the same thing.
If it is illegal for them to make and sell them it is for you to use them. Be careful you don't get caught and fined.
JHZR2
Staff member
To me, avoiding the regen on a DPF sounds like suicide. IIRC, they are fine, tortuous paths in a corderite or ceramic material designed to catch soot and then burn off with fuel.
Dont do the burnoff and it wil clog, terible backpressure, who knows what other issues.
Im sure that IAW the CAA, companies cant give an easy option to do emissions controls delete.
It doesnt stop idiots from hacking their converters in the interest of some fraction of a HP, and some states dont even check.
But if you were so interested in doing this, Id likely be paying someone who actually knows what theyre doing to provide a proper ECU flash and then actually pull and cap off all the components possible, assuming you dont get a visual check.
Dont do the burnoff and it wil clog, terible backpressure, who knows what other issues.
Im sure that IAW the CAA, companies cant give an easy option to do emissions controls delete.
It doesnt stop idiots from hacking their converters in the interest of some fraction of a HP, and some states dont even check.
But if you were so interested in doing this, Id likely be paying someone who actually knows what theyre doing to provide a proper ECU flash and then actually pull and cap off all the components possible, assuming you dont get a visual check.
supton:
You are almost there, it doesn't retard timing. Really you wouldn't know it is doing a regen unless the car told you.
It just injects fuel on the exhaust stroke so it travels down the pipe to the DPF where it ignites. Imagine stoking a fire with air to increase the heat, this is done with diesel in the DPF. It increases the temp high enough to turn the soot to ash. Then by driving and using the go pedal you blow this harmless ash out the tailpipe.
The easiest way to cause an early dpf death is to tune for maximum fuel & soot like all those trucks you see "rolling coal". That is why they must physically remove them and tune them out. They will clog like and other filter through misuse.
People see a mpg improvement because no fuel on the exhaust stroke & less restriction.
I personally would rather have clean air.
You are almost there, it doesn't retard timing. Really you wouldn't know it is doing a regen unless the car told you.
It just injects fuel on the exhaust stroke so it travels down the pipe to the DPF where it ignites. Imagine stoking a fire with air to increase the heat, this is done with diesel in the DPF. It increases the temp high enough to turn the soot to ash. Then by driving and using the go pedal you blow this harmless ash out the tailpipe.
The easiest way to cause an early dpf death is to tune for maximum fuel & soot like all those trucks you see "rolling coal". That is why they must physically remove them and tune them out. They will clog like and other filter through misuse.
People see a mpg improvement because no fuel on the exhaust stroke & less restriction.
I personally would rather have clean air.
Originally Posted By: Dr_No
I own a newer diesel, and with it came a DOC and DPF. I was able to order a quadzilla programmer last month which enabled me to remove the "regen" function on the ECM. Anyways, companies like edge have been fined upwards of $500,000 by the epa and have discontinued their line of programmers that remove DPF components. Now, recently, quadzillas website is offline and rumors say they will have a new product line just minus the "off road" tune which deletes the DPF. It looks like I got mine just in time! im enjoying better mileage and a great sound from my truck. But now for anyone else it appears they will have quite a challenge doing the same thing.
No different than a catalytic converter delete. People have been hacking emissions controls since 1971!!!
My Dmax runs so sweetly I wouldn't dare mess with it. And I can't stand the diesel owners who have to have a stream of black smoke when they get on it. Hopefully this will restart inspections and certifications, as just one vehicle tuned in this manner can emit the equivalent of THOUSANDS of properly tuned ones.
I own a newer diesel, and with it came a DOC and DPF. I was able to order a quadzilla programmer last month which enabled me to remove the "regen" function on the ECM. Anyways, companies like edge have been fined upwards of $500,000 by the epa and have discontinued their line of programmers that remove DPF components. Now, recently, quadzillas website is offline and rumors say they will have a new product line just minus the "off road" tune which deletes the DPF. It looks like I got mine just in time! im enjoying better mileage and a great sound from my truck. But now for anyone else it appears they will have quite a challenge doing the same thing.
No different than a catalytic converter delete. People have been hacking emissions controls since 1971!!!
My Dmax runs so sweetly I wouldn't dare mess with it. And I can't stand the diesel owners who have to have a stream of black smoke when they get on it. Hopefully this will restart inspections and certifications, as just one vehicle tuned in this manner can emit the equivalent of THOUSANDS of properly tuned ones.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
No different than a catalytic converter delete. People have been hacking emissions controls since 1971!!!
My Dmax runs so sweetly I wouldn't dare mess with it. And I can't stand the diesel owners who have to have a stream of black smoke when they get on it. Hopefully this will restart inspections and certifications, as just one vehicle tuned in this manner can emit the equivalent of THOUSANDS of properly tuned ones.
well said.
No different than a catalytic converter delete. People have been hacking emissions controls since 1971!!!
My Dmax runs so sweetly I wouldn't dare mess with it. And I can't stand the diesel owners who have to have a stream of black smoke when they get on it. Hopefully this will restart inspections and certifications, as just one vehicle tuned in this manner can emit the equivalent of THOUSANDS of properly tuned ones.
well said.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
No different than a catalytic converter delete. People have been hacking emissions controls since 1971!!!
My Dmax runs so sweetly I wouldn't dare mess with it. And I can't stand the diesel owners who have to have a stream of black smoke when they get on it. Hopefully this will restart inspections and certifications, as just one vehicle tuned in this manner can emit the equivalent of THOUSANDS of properly tuned ones.
well said.
I agree. VERY WELL said.
What I hate are the guys with the HD trucks who put dual smoke stacks on like a big rig and every time they floor it the poor people behind them get choked with big clouds of smelly black smoke.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
No different than a catalytic converter delete. People have been hacking emissions controls since 1971!!!
My Dmax runs so sweetly I wouldn't dare mess with it. And I can't stand the diesel owners who have to have a stream of black smoke when they get on it. Hopefully this will restart inspections and certifications, as just one vehicle tuned in this manner can emit the equivalent of THOUSANDS of properly tuned ones.
well said.
I agree. VERY WELL said.
What I hate are the guys with the HD trucks who put dual smoke stacks on like a big rig and every time they floor it the poor people behind them get choked with big clouds of smelly black smoke.
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I stand corrected.
My statement to "avoid regen" was to reduce the number of cycles that it needs to regen. If you can balance fuel consumption against DPF replacement, it might pan out in the end (assuming it ever needs replacement). But I didn't mean to inhibit operation, just drive such that it might regen less, due to less soot being generated.
I know on my TDi it burns less oil, and stays in better shape with hard(er) driving. I don't think it cares for low boost conditions (lower ring sealing, more oil leakage in the turbo, something). I've babied it for max mpg, and it will smoke like a freight train the first time I get on it if I do that for any length of time--either soot is building up and needs to be blown out, or it generates a lot of soot under low fueling.
My statement to "avoid regen" was to reduce the number of cycles that it needs to regen. If you can balance fuel consumption against DPF replacement, it might pan out in the end (assuming it ever needs replacement). But I didn't mean to inhibit operation, just drive such that it might regen less, due to less soot being generated.
I know on my TDi it burns less oil, and stays in better shape with hard(er) driving. I don't think it cares for low boost conditions (lower ring sealing, more oil leakage in the turbo, something). I've babied it for max mpg, and it will smoke like a freight train the first time I get on it if I do that for any length of time--either soot is building up and needs to be blown out, or it generates a lot of soot under low fueling.
and how are we still the best country in the world?
That is exactly why the new TDI's need to be driven hard. I forced regen is never as beneficial as a steady state highspeed drive to naturally get the soot out of there.
I also notice the same as you supton, although I think mine is magnified more because of the automatic. God how that thing loves to lug itself in town.
It will most likely be a 5 speed by then of summer if $$$ is willing.
To go along with SteveSRT8 & NHHEMI:
I've been looking for a cheap truck for you know, truck like duties. I would love a diesel because well I am a diesel guy at heart. Wouldn't you know it just about every nice one at first glance has apon closer inspection...ugly stacks.
Then they think it increases the value by 25%. It makes my head hurt...and I have 2 daughters
I also notice the same as you supton, although I think mine is magnified more because of the automatic. God how that thing loves to lug itself in town.
It will most likely be a 5 speed by then of summer if $$$ is willing.
To go along with SteveSRT8 & NHHEMI:
I've been looking for a cheap truck for you know, truck like duties. I would love a diesel because well I am a diesel guy at heart. Wouldn't you know it just about every nice one at first glance has apon closer inspection...ugly stacks.
Then they think it increases the value by 25%. It makes my head hurt...and I have 2 daughters
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My next planned vehicle is likely going to be a VW. I had a 2003 Golf TDI, and loved that engine. Of course that engine was from an era before they went crazy with emissions controls. I ruled out the current TDI Golf/Jetta, as that engine has reports of high pressure fuel pump failures, causing damage to the entire fuel system, including tank. I don't know what percentage the failure rate is, but it is prominent enough to have long (over 200 pages) dedicated threads on it. That pushed me to the bland, but very competent 2.5L gasser.
When I noticed the Passat and Golf Wagon were within hand holding distance in price, I looked at that. It intrigued me when I found out the diesel in that car was a completely different engine, despite on specs and outward appearances looking similar. This engine uses DEF, and has a DPF, of course requiring regen.
This has me concerned, as the regen temps go excessively high. If the vehicle is turned off during a regen, the oil inside the turbo can get coked, causing turbo failure. Seems like there are now some cases of just that, and a quick google of regen seems to indicate this is a concern for owners of other diesel engines as well.
I can certainly see why someone would look at a delete, not from an increased HP perspective, but for better engine longevity. I am definitely gun shy of the current diesels out there due to this issue.
When I noticed the Passat and Golf Wagon were within hand holding distance in price, I looked at that. It intrigued me when I found out the diesel in that car was a completely different engine, despite on specs and outward appearances looking similar. This engine uses DEF, and has a DPF, of course requiring regen.
This has me concerned, as the regen temps go excessively high. If the vehicle is turned off during a regen, the oil inside the turbo can get coked, causing turbo failure. Seems like there are now some cases of just that, and a quick google of regen seems to indicate this is a concern for owners of other diesel engines as well.
I can certainly see why someone would look at a delete, not from an increased HP perspective, but for better engine longevity. I am definitely gun shy of the current diesels out there due to this issue.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Also: the regen can dump raw fuel into the oil!
Very true, our techs say when they do oil changes on the 6.4L they regularly drain 20+ quarts when they only put in 15.
Also: the regen can dump raw fuel into the oil!
Very true, our techs say when they do oil changes on the 6.4L they regularly drain 20+ quarts when they only put in 15.
Essentially the DOC is just like a catalytic converter, just for the diesel engine. "Regen" is a cycle where my engine (LMM) adds more fuel to the mixture to heat up exhaust temps, cleaning the exhaust filter. This causes heavy fuel dilution in the motor oil and it shows with the soot content. The new LML engine did fix the issue by adding a ninth injector into the exhaust to reduce fuel dilution. And to clear things up, in WOT, my truck puffs a small amount of black, if any. The truck shouldn't be classified as a "polluter" any more than earlier generation duramax engines with nothing but a muffler.
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Actually, the federal government cannot control what you do with your vehicle. There is no Constitutionally enumerated power that allows the fed gov to restrict your vehicle modifications.
They use the elastic clause typically called the "interstate commerce clause" and to a lesser extent the "general welfare clause" (which is a prefatory clause and holds no power) to regulate all sorts of things. Including the manufacture and sale of vehicles.
In fact if you really want to drill down to the basics, the constitutional power to "regulate commerce between the states" really cannot be understood to allow regulation of each and every product ever produced.
Now, your state, on the other hand, can regulate your vehicle and what you do with it.
They use the elastic clause typically called the "interstate commerce clause" and to a lesser extent the "general welfare clause" (which is a prefatory clause and holds no power) to regulate all sorts of things. Including the manufacture and sale of vehicles.
In fact if you really want to drill down to the basics, the constitutional power to "regulate commerce between the states" really cannot be understood to allow regulation of each and every product ever produced.
Now, your state, on the other hand, can regulate your vehicle and what you do with it.
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