German lug bolts are better than ROW lug nuts, true?

[Pablo]

We had bolts on the Volvo 850. Meh, I could go either way. I'm not a stud breaker, not going to buy a beater with a broken stud, so that is a moot point in my world.

My Tacoma wheels are a pain now, I can't imagine with bolts.

 

[JHZR2]

This very common with euro cars especially the ones with 1 piece lug bolts. A weighted impact socket eg IR power sockets do the job. When the 1 piece is replaced with a 2 piece lug bolt (not always possible) there are no more problems, they must be lubed when installing.

View attachment 284078

Just the two piece, or any lug bolts??

 

[maduroman]

Actually I hate to admit it but, it's a superior design
Working on European vehicles has gotten me used to it though

 

[Trav]

Just the two piece, or any lug bolts??

Any of the ones using a cone either one or two piece. IIRC Optimol TA paste is commonly recommended, I just use copper or nickel anti seize. Even Titanium bolts need it. Some wheels for some reason are worse that others for binding up on the lug seats, some old Saab were so bad they had a TSB on them and would replace all of them with 2 piece for free. Some BMW, VW, MB, etc suffer from this also.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ChAWegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw0qbXDTG3BVEJDfiETI-yfs
ACER Racing
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ChAWegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw0qbXDTG3BVEJDfiETI-yfs

Note: always make sure to use proper titanium anti-seize on threads and hand torque to correct specs to prevent galling or seizing when using titanium studs ...

 

[Astro14]

I use nickel antiseize on the titanium bolts. And I make certain that the techs know they’re working with titanium. I’m cool about it, not a pain, but I make certain that they know by asking politely.

Many years ago, I was getting four new tires on the S600, I had a tire shop manager who thought he was being funny when I brought up the titanium bolts, so he said, “I will tell them to torque the #### out of those bolts!”

I was in USN camouflage, that, at the time, was only worn by SEALS and other expeditionary forces.

I leaned in, so no one else could hear us, and in a quiet, deep voice, said, “#### with my baby, and they will never find your body.”

The tech was very careful.

The manager, exceedingly polite.

Not a technique I have employed since, no reason to, but I sure didn’t appreciate the “joke”, and wonder how he felt about the “joke” in return…

 

[JHZR2]

I use nickel antiseize on the titanium bolts. And I make certain that the techs know they’re working with titanium. I’m cool about it, not a pain, but I make certain that they know by asking politely.

Many years ago, I was getting four new tires on the S600, I had a tire shop manager who thought he was being funny when I brought up the titanium bolts, so he said, “I will tell them to torque the #### out of those bolts!”

I was in USN camouflage, that, at the time, was only worn by SEALS and other expeditionary forces.

I leaned in, so no one else could hear us, and in a quiet, deep voice, said, “#### with my baby, and they will never find your body.”

The tech was very careful.

The manager, exceedingly polite.

Not a technique I have employed since, no reason to, but I sure didn’t appreciate the “joke”, and wonder how he felt about the “joke” in return…

As they rubbed saliva and the finest layer of feces over all surfaces that you’ll touch…



Hope they appreciated the joke and weren’t the type to extract their ounce of revenge!!

But I digress…

Does titanium spall with steel, or shearing on aluminum, to justify the antiseize? Or do we have a funky galvanic pair?

Any of the ones using a cone either one or two piece. IIRC Optimol TA paste is commonly recommended, I just use copper or nickel anti seize. Even Titanium bolts need it. Some wheels for some reason are worse that others for binding up on the lug seats, some old Saab were so bad they had a TSB on them and would replace all of them with 2 piece for free. Some BMW, VW, MB, etc suffer from this also.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.acerracing.com/collections/porsche?srsltid=AfmBOorKZ481BLx427K_k7j0PW84dREg7uX_keCIOhMjnwQ-unPjzEb5&ved=2ahUKEwjrqaCv_OeNAxW3jokEHTe4FaQ4ChAWegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw0qbXDTG3BVEJDfiETI-yfs
ACER Racing
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.acerracing.com/collections/porsche?srsltid=AfmBOorKZ481BLx427K_k7j0PW84dREg7uX_keCIOhMjnwQ-unPjzEb5&ved=2ahUKEwjrqaCv_OeNAxW3jokEHTe4FaQ4ChAWegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw0qbXDTG3BVEJDfiETI-yfs

I had that issue on my BMW aluminum basketweave wheels on my E30, and on my Saab. So bad at times that I’d have to put a 3 foot pipe on a 2 foot breaker bar and stand on it to get it to free up. >1000 ft-lb battery impacts could not do it.

Those were the days.

The MB bolts are just weird. Sometimes hard to get free, but they bind up when torquing down. They’re the only lug bolts I’ve ever used, and this is specific to the w126 that has a funky long two part solid bolt, and the ML which looks pretty normal. I torque them down, check again, and half of them will go another 32nd of a turn before hitting the torque limit. Sometimes this will repeat 2-3x (with driving between) before they’re fully torqued.

You said any of the ones using a cone. But is it only a cone? Ball too??

 

[Astro14]

Did they? Perhaps. I doubt it.

The manager laughed nervously, but then ran to the shop.

Whatever. Discount tire guys have been careful with the car. If I could mount and balance my own tires, I would. I used to do them at the auto hobby shop on base. Now closed.

Titanium galls against steel if it’s run at high speed with an impact.

The anti-seize prevents that galling.

I honestly don’t remember what the seat looks like, I think it’s a ball.

Regardless, I drive the car to my shop, check pressure, and then check that they’re appropriately tight with a torque wrench.

I will even back them off, and re-tighten to the proper torque.

So far discount tire has done a good job. If the specification is say, 100 foot pounds, it only takes about 100 to break them loose, which means they didn’t run them in hard with the impact, and then just click the torque wrench. I’ve seen plenty of “Techs” use that method, which is basically grossly overtightening them, and making sure the legal liability is covered.

 

[JHZR2]

Did they? Perhaps. I doubt it.

The manager laughed nervously, but then ran to the shop.

Whatever. Discount tire guys have been careful with the car. If I could mount and balance my own tires, I would. I used to do them at the auto hobby shop on base. Now closed.

Titanium galls against steel if it’s run at high speed with an impact.

The anti-seize prevents that galling.

I honestly don’t remember what the seat looks like, I think it’s a ball.

Regardless, I drive the car to my shop, check pressure, and then check that they’re appropriately tight with a torque wrench.

I will even back them off, and re-tighten to the proper torque.

So far discount tire has done a good job. If the specification is say, 100 foot pounds, it only takes about 100 to break them loose, which means they didn’t run them in hard with the impact, and then just click the torque wrench. I’ve seen plenty of “Techs” use that method, which is basically grossly overtightening them, and making sure the legal liability is covered.

So it will gall the steel, not spall itself under shear. Interesting.

I’ve seen some cases of the Ti-Al pair seemingly corrode the Al to nothing in bicycles. But there could be other factors at play there.

The OEM MB lug bolts I believe have the issue at the actual seat, not the threads, which is why I asked. Do you lube the seats as well? I recall that this is a big debate regarding anti seize on any lugs, but given the higher sensitivity of these materials, it makes me wonder.

We don’t have discount tire around here. But the mom and pop shops, which are trustworthy and do good work do seem to match the prices.

 

[Trav]

As they rubbed saliva and the finest layer of feces over all surfaces that you’ll touch…



Hope they appreciated the joke and weren’t the type to extract their ounce of revenge!!

But I digress…

Does titanium spall with steel, or shearing on aluminum, to justify the antiseize? Or do we have a funky galvanic pair?




I had that issue on my BMW aluminum basketweave wheels on my E30, and on my Saab. So bad at times that I’d have to put a 3 foot pipe on a 2 foot breaker bar and stand on it to get it to free up. >1000 ft-lb battery impacts could not do it.

Those were the days.

The MB bolts are just weird. Sometimes hard to get free, but they bind up when torquing down. They’re the only lug bolts I’ve ever used, and this is specific to the w126 that has a funky long two part solid bolt, and the ML which looks pretty normal. I torque them down, check again, and half of them will go another 32nd of a turn before hitting the torque limit. Sometimes this will repeat 2-3x (with driving between) before they’re fully torqued.

You said any of the ones using a cone. But is it only a cone? Ball too??

Yes the ball too, although usually not as bad they can also make for a little excitement. If anyone does their own work I would recommend a power socket from IR in the needed size, they are a game changer and fit aluminum wheels with recessed lug bolts. Astro makes some that are a little different and less expensive but I cant say about fitment.

 

[Hohn]

Studs really originate from before hub-centric wheels became popular. Studs make perfect sense for lug-centric designs that use the bolt pattern to locate the wheel (typically with conical or spherical seat lug nuts)

As both an engineer and a DiY, I see no reason a lug bolt couldn't work just fine, if the wheel has adequate locating feature that allow it to be centered without an installed fastener.

Nobody seems to want to provide that much trunnion on the hub. So studs it is.


Also, I'm getting the impression that people aren't recognizing that's an AI-generated video.

 

[BrendanC]

i’ve worked on both and will choose traditional studs over wheel bolts every day of the week and twice on sunday.

as pointed out, if some tire tech had buffered up the threads on the hub, you’re in for quite a bit more work than just knocking out studs and pulling new ones.

 

[Jetronic]

In terms of easy of use, I like wheel bolts more. I had two wheel studs come loose on a 2022 Corolla. As I was taking the wheels off with my impact gun (brushed Ryobi, so no that powerful) the vibrations loosened two of the wheel studs. One on the front left wheel and the other on the right rear. (Before anybody asks, it wasn't an issue with over torquing. The lug nuts are open ended so the ends of the studs became quite rusty over the winter. Switching to acorn style wheel nuts going forward). Managed to get the front one sorted, but I had to take the rear brake caliper and caliper bracket off to get the rear stud back in.

Another thing is that if you live somewhere where they salt the roads, it's much easier to clean the wheel hubs. Brake clean, some quick wire wheel action, some more brake clean, a bit of copper anti seize, and you're good to go. With wheel studs they're always in the way and you're forced to use those tooth brush looking wire brushes and maneuver a rag around the studs in order to clean any crud off.

I don't have any problems lining up the wheels. Holding the wheel in place with one or two feet does the trick. But I've always been dealing with car sized tires. I can imagine all of that becoming a bit more difficult once you get into SUV territory.

The 19" wheels that came on some tucson trims were getting into the "more difficult" territory. We stored summer/winter wheels at the dealership, I reserved the lowest levels of the shelves for those wheels.

 

[Ranger83]

The most frustrating way to attach a wheel.
Completely asinine.

For extra fun, if you have alloy wheels for three seasons and steel wheels for winter tires, you need two sets of bolts, of different lengths.

 

[The Artillerist]

I was in USN camouflage, that, at the time, was only worn by SEALS and other expeditionary forces.

Permit me to inquire, part of what forces you were, sir?

 

[Astro14]

Permit me to inquire, part of what forces you were, sir?

At the time, I was the Deputy Commander of a Maritime Security Squadron.

We fell under Expeditionary Combat Command. The 2 Star that owns SEALS and small boat units.

I believe I was the Admiral’s “Science Project” - an Aviator that was screened for Major Command in the Surface Warfare/Expeditionary world.

It was a great tour. Loved it. Had 500 sailors and officers in the squadron. Weapons, boats, vehicles, comm equipment, surveillance gear. Lots of cool stuff. We were well funded. Spent a lot of time in the field, on the water and at the range.

Really one of the highlights of my career. Some of the best sailors and senior enlisted with whom I’ve ever worked. The officers were great, but there were plenty of mentoring opportunities.

I spent 30 years in the Navy, mostly active, some reserve. I was really fortunate to have some great opportunities and experiences.

 

[tcp71]

Porsche uses these. The rest have studs. Don't have a preference.

 

[Kira]

The video Trav linked to in post #29 barely showed the tool they were testing/praising.
There was no description of the difference or improvement offered by their product.
Strange.

 

[Pablo]

The last thing in that AI video ( Chinese?) what is going on there? Torquing?

 

[D60]

Nobody seems to want to provide that much trunnion on the hub. So studs it is.


Also, I'm getting the impression that people aren't recognizing that's an AI-generated video.

This is one place where full floaters are sweet!

I also wondered about AI, thank you

 

[Hohn]

This is one place where full floaters are sweet!

I also wondered about AI, thank you

Right, but you're not getting much in the way of full floaters with Cardan joint/CV axles on FWD cars that are the majority of passcar applications now.


I'd love to have an old rig with manual lockers on full floaters, but it's not common.