generator sounddeadening shelter

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I have a Duro-max 10000E coming next week. From the depot. I live in a nice residential neighborhood and these things can make an awful racket. The specs say that it is 72 db when operating. I have my plans drawn up for an insulted baffled "dog house". The thing is I need to power vent the enclosure. Is a 250 cfm duct fan capable of ventilating, cooling and exhausting the fumes? Or should I go 500 cfm fan ?
I should be able to get down in the low 60s db with this set up... worried about keeping it cool though.
 
I'm not at all sure a 250 CFM fan will be enough for a 10KW genset. Seems like a recipe for overheating. As the 250 CFM fan will likely move only a portion of that amount under load.

My German engineer friend made an insulating box for his 3500W generator. It was weatherproofed, insulated inside and had a very high quality box fan at one end. The fan would blow open plastic strips. It worked very well.

Another friend uses an attic fan to pull air through a radiator to both cool the diesel engine and to evacuate the generator shed. It's not powerful enough and the engine runs too hot. While the attic fan is rated at something like 600CFM, it creates very little pressure drop, and therefore is not the best choice. As it struggles to move any air through the radiator.
 
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Do you mean a portable box fan? Like say a 21" you'd get at Wal-Mart or such?

How about the 500 cfm... for reference, that's 5 times the average bathroom fan. These fans are small and seem to move a lot of air quickly.
 
That's part of the plan. However most of the noise on these rattle traps comes from the internal mechanics of the engine and generator.
Wouldn't a stock muffler be quieter?
 
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Just my two cents worth regarding how to quiet a gen-set.

Of course you know you are dealing with a generator that runs at 3600 RPMs all the time, compared to the quieter and more expensive inverter type that throttle the engine RPMs to match the load.

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Years ago at the old Buhl Science center there was an exhibit that consisted of a room similar to two U put together and a large multi-pane glass in the center. Imagine one U upside down and one U normal, and them over-lapping so there is a walk way on each side before you enter. The room was carpeted on ALL SURFACES (floor, walls, and ceiling) and so was the entrance path along the legs you had to walk through to get in or out. Kids would go into that room and while looking out at their friends through the multi-pane glass they would yell as loud as they could, and you literally could not hear any sound that they made. Outside walls of the Buel exhibit were not carpeted.

I have often thought that the design of that room would make a great generator sound-deadening structure, just add fans. The only drawback was the size of that structure. Those walk through legs with turns add a lot of area to what the entire structure takes up.

Anyhow, just keep in mind that any inside wall coated with carpet will absorb sound and can not have sound bounce off of them.

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BTW, speaking of fans, you want to have the fan(s) in a wall so that none of the air leaving the fan has any way to re-enter.


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I have been paying attention to how to quiet down gen-sets for several years now. I added a car muffler to my 5000 Watt / 6250 Watt Peak Coleman Powermate Generator with a single cylinder Tecumseh 10 HP HM-100 gasoline engine, as that engine with the stock muffler can wake the dead. Before I added the car muffler I spoke to a mechanic who works on them. He said that a car muffler helps some, but not as much as you might hope because of the other sources of noise from those engines. He also said that if you remove the muffler most engines have pipe thread at the exit hole and you can buy the correct pipe size and thread it into those exhausts, but you must include some means of having flex or things will end up breaking because of the engine moving when it runs. I used a flex pipe from McMaster-Carr.

Adding the car muffler did not reduce the noise enough to make any noticeable difference if you are within 20 feet of it. But once you are in a house near by, there is a world of difference, in fact it is almost not even noticeable in the house with the car muffler, and without it was very annoying in the house.

These engines have several sources of noise, not just the exhaust. The intake going into the air filter is also in pulses, and the internal moving parts also make quite a racket.

One of the best post I read on another forum was about someone whose brother in law dug a very deep hole, put a pipe for the exhaust down to the bottom of the hole and filled it with sand. The person who owned the generator said it was the quietest muffler he has ever heard. I though of doing this, and besides the obvious problem that you have to be plenty far enough from any structure that may be occupied, in areas where the ground freezes during the winter there is some question about how the top layer of soil being frozen will affect such a system. And it can't be too healthy for plants and earth worms.

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Some of the attic vent fans are very energy hungry because these fans are designed paying more attention to how much copper they use and not paying attention to how much power they consume. They are in a huge draft so they get away with it, but they draw a heck of a lot more than their HP rating would suggest.

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How many gallons of gasoline do you plan to store? I have seen big snow storms tie up roads for 3 days, and three days worth of gasoline for one of these generators is a lot of gasoline.
 
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The generator will have its own engine fan and cooling flow; don't contradict it setting up your 2nd fan.
 
Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
...Is a 250 cfm duct fan capable of ventilating, cooling and exhausting the fumes? Or should I go 500 cfm fan ?
I should be able to get down in the low 60s db with this set up... worried about keeping it cool though.


My kitchen fan is 600 cfm. I would shoot for that or better.
 
Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
...Is a 250 cfm duct fan capable of ventilating, cooling and exhausting the fumes? Or should I go 500 cfm fan ?...
A gallon of gas per hour will create about 100,000 BTU/hr. To move 100,000 BTU/hour takes CFM*1.08*deltaT. Or CFM = (100,000 BTU/hr)/(1.08*(Tout-Tin)) Using standard air(Cp=0.24 & density=0.075 lb/ft3)

If the generator enclosure is 150F and the outside air is 100F then deltaT = 50F So CFM = (100,000)/(1.08*50) or 1850 CFM

The blower out of a typical 100,000 BTU/hr home furnace would work great and can be found cheap in many parts of the country. I see them occasionally for $25 around here. In any case, the blower you use needs to move the air against the pressure drop created by your enclosure. Not the CFM rating with no pressure drop. With no resistance to flow, any micky mouse fan can look good. Good luck.
 
Move to a differant neighborhood if your neighbors are that easily disturbed when a power failure occures, and forget the sound problem.
 
If your neighbors complain about the noise then offer to toss them an extension cord for an hour or so if they give you some fresh gasoline.
 
I would go for a passive cooling design, like a doghouse with 2" gaps at top and bottom of walls or even a couple standard roof vents. Line it with 3.5" roxul insulation.
How to keep the critters out of it is the problem though. Maybe just have slide in and out panels for the gaps?
 
Thanks to all of you. Some good replies here and I'm taking them all into consideration. As far as the neighbors, well maybe I am the BIOTCH. My neighbor next door ran his gen set 6500 for 72 hours and kept me awake for days after Sandy, LOL. So knowing I'm getting one of the noise boxes I want it quiet as possible. Then maybe the king and his castle will get some sleep whilst keeping the ice cream frozen! The neighbor and I are working on this together... whatever I wind up with will be times two as I will build him the same thing. He will pay for his materials.

Any way let me try to discribe what I have so far as for the design.

Imagine an ice chest with no floor, removable panels in the front, 3 - 6 inch holes opposite the muffler duct-ed with 3 feet of insulated flexible outside the box for air intake. at the other end a 500 cfm to 1500 cfm fan (s) installed in the wall (there is room for 3- 8" fans). Duct fans are fairly quiet, I'll plug them right into the gen set.

Now at home depot I found rigid insulation 2"x4x8 (and also 1 1/2 and 1"). !/4" plywood outside for strength

I would build this contraption with no floor as you recall and when I roll the gen set out to the driveway, I'll set inso-box on top and around... with the bottom edges some-how sealed to the driveway with a garage door gasket. The front panel will be removable; as will an access hole in the top for adding gas. It uses about 8 gallons per 10 hour shift.

I grew up on a large commercial chicken farm and we had a 75 KW with a cummins diesel. Around that we built a 10'x16' building with similar properties as this design I speak of (except it was permanent and was on a concrete slab.) Without the building you couldn't have a conversation within 150 feet as I recall. I'm no engineer and the formula above points to a cfm of 1800 for my little reverse ice chest. I can accomplish 1800 cfm with a roof vent fan... because of it's size it would create for me a dilemma in the overall design.
I'd rather keep with these 8" 500 cfm fans if possible, If I go to 3 fans, which I can fit, I can get to 1500 cfm. but will it still be quiet since now I am opening 2 more fan holes and will need more intakes duct-ed.

I'm sure this is how the space shuttle started out!

All your thoughts are valuable... it makes me think of things I hadn't.
 
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Originally Posted By: DoiInthanon
Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
...Is a 250 cfm duct fan capable of ventilating, cooling and exhausting the fumes? Or should I go 500 cfm fan ?...
A gallon of gas per hour will create about 100,000 BTU/hr. To move 100,000 BTU/hour takes CFM*1.08*deltaT. Or CFM = (100,000 BTU/hr)/(1.08*(Tout-Tin)) Using standard air(Cp=0.24 & density=0.075 lb/ft3)

If the generator enclosure is 150F and the outside air is 100F then deltaT = 50F So CFM = (100,000)/(1.08*50) or 1850 CFM

The blower out of a typical 100,000 BTU/hr home furnace would work great and can be found cheap in many parts of the country. I see them occasionally for $25 around here. In any case, the blower you use needs to move the air against the pressure drop created by your enclosure. Not the CFM rating with no pressure drop. With no resistance to flow, any micky mouse fan can look good. Good luck.


A fan like that probably draws about 6 Amps on one of the 125 VAC sides.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I would go for a passive cooling design, like a doghouse with 2" gaps at top and bottom of walls or even a couple standard roof vents. Line it with 3.5" roxul insulation.
How to keep the critters out of it is the problem though. Maybe just have slide in and out panels for the gaps?


Sounds like way too little cooling. For passive you would probably require something like 2 feet in gap, not 2 inches.


You really have to allow the air to move with out having the hot air leaving the gen-set find any way to become some of the air drawn into cooling the genset. And you also have to not have enough restriction to reduce the air flow. In other words pay close attention that the air leaving can NOT end up being drawn in again.
 
1. heat soak, with a gas tank in there, worries. need a way to keep cool air coming in after shutdown. either efficient passive or 12vdc forced.

2. consider duct/pipe the exh through an auto muffler, purely so that you can pipe that out of the case as well. when this thing is under load, it's going to produce a lot of exh.

3. consider ducting the fresh air to the engine cooling and gen head intakes. otherwise even with forced air, it's going to recirculate some and the ambient temps will be higher.

4. plan for the worst. fuel leak? hot spark? it could happen. use non-flammable materials. flame arrestors in intake and exh. think of how marine inboards are treated.

I own a yamaha 3k inverter. It is, from what I can tell, a standard engine/head combo in a metal box. key design elements that I see:
- bottom is a metal tray
- top is a metal cover/lid with 4 sides.
- cooling intake air is ducted straight to the pull-rope grill.
- warm air appears to just "find it's way out" the backside of the engine--- cooling the muffler on its way out.
- large muffler, at the grill that serves also as the warm-air-out vent.
- air enters one end, and leaves on the other--- so the exh may have a "long" path in there.
- there are no gaps. if you remove an access panel even a 2"x4" opening becomes a lot louder.
- all metal on the inside is lined with foam.

This makes me think that a metal carcass, braced and insulated, from a washer or drier might be a GREAT place to start. or a cut 50gal drum, if the gennie would roll into it.

I think it's a great idea. silence is golden. Hopefully you and your neighbor can get some good use out of these. I'll be interested in seeing what materials you go with--- some sort of tar compound might be a good deadener.
 
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Tar compound... sounds flamable

I am thinking about these new insights no comment yet. Speaking of wizards... Bill Nye the science guy is going to be on DWTS. He says physics will help him out...

Be back soon
 
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