General article on oil additives from Ford forum.
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Really???
A Ford Forum? An article from 1992?
Really???
A Ford Forum? An article from 1992?
Really???
It's an old article, but it still makes very valid points.
An interesting part of the article, actually admits the products work. Then uses words like "can" which is vague at best. Yes over use of these "can" be harmful. Funny thing about that statement is we have members that use MMO every oil change w/o issue, but that's another story. Still show me a used oil analysis where MMO harmed an engine, they're on the site. Or any documentation that it ruined an engine, I'm still waiting. Yea TBN takes a hit, but why would you extend an OCI to clean an engine? Odds are it was the extended OCI that got you into trouble in the first place. It even admits these additives "had their place".
Engines today still have issues, issues that existed in the 50's and 60's that the article references in that clip still exist. You don't believe it spend some time on this site, or talk to anyone in the automotive profession that tears engines down for a living if ticking lifters, varnish and sludge, are no longer an issue. When you find one that hasn't seen any of those problems in any modern engines, you found a liar.
Oh yea, the article is very old. Some additives still have their place in solving problems before actually tearing into an engine.
From the article.
Detergents And Solvents
Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like "quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine."
Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83 percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of standard mineral oil.
In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they are designed to strip away such things.
All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one. The problem is, unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful metal-to-metal contact within your engine.
As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient engine designs of the past two decades.
Engines today still have issues, issues that existed in the 50's and 60's that the article references in that clip still exist. You don't believe it spend some time on this site, or talk to anyone in the automotive profession that tears engines down for a living if ticking lifters, varnish and sludge, are no longer an issue. When you find one that hasn't seen any of those problems in any modern engines, you found a liar.
Oh yea, the article is very old. Some additives still have their place in solving problems before actually tearing into an engine.
From the article.
Detergents And Solvents
Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like "quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine."
Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83 percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of standard mineral oil.
In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they are designed to strip away such things.
All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one. The problem is, unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful metal-to-metal contact within your engine.
As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient engine designs of the past two decades.
The problem with an old article is the oils have gotten so much better.
And with respect to MMO leave it on the Walmart shelf and pick up PU oil. MMO while it may not ruin an engine DOES HURT the lubricity of the engine oil and I would rather clean my engine with PU than with MMO. But its kind of a free country still in many way, so use what you wish.
And with respect to MMO leave it on the Walmart shelf and pick up PU oil. MMO while it may not ruin an engine DOES HURT the lubricity of the engine oil and I would rather clean my engine with PU than with MMO. But its kind of a free country still in many way, so use what you wish.
Originally Posted By: Donald
The problem with an old article is the oils have gotten so much better.
And with respect to MMO leave it on the Walmart shelf and pick up PU oil. MMO while it may not ruin an engine DOES HURT the lubricity of the engine oil and I would rather clean my engine with PU than with MMO. But its kind of a free country still in many way, so use what you wish.
Got some proof PU cleans better than Kreen or MMO? I agree it might do some cleaning, but for problem engines it doesn't clean as well as oil with MMO or Kreen added. Once a problem engine is cleaned up PU would be a great choice to keep it clean.
As far as MMO hurting lubricity check out the used oil analysis section you might be surprised. Yea TBN takes a hit that's old news. Extended drains are not beneficial while cleaning an engine so it's a moot point.
The problem with an old article is the oils have gotten so much better.
And with respect to MMO leave it on the Walmart shelf and pick up PU oil. MMO while it may not ruin an engine DOES HURT the lubricity of the engine oil and I would rather clean my engine with PU than with MMO. But its kind of a free country still in many way, so use what you wish.
Got some proof PU cleans better than Kreen or MMO? I agree it might do some cleaning, but for problem engines it doesn't clean as well as oil with MMO or Kreen added. Once a problem engine is cleaned up PU would be a great choice to keep it clean.
As far as MMO hurting lubricity check out the used oil analysis section you might be surprised. Yea TBN takes a hit that's old news. Extended drains are not beneficial while cleaning an engine so it's a moot point.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Donald
The problem with an old article is the oils have gotten so much better.
And with respect to MMO leave it on the Walmart shelf and pick up PU oil. MMO while it may not ruin an engine DOES HURT the lubricity of the engine oil and I would rather clean my engine with PU than with MMO. But its kind of a free country still in many way, so use what you wish.
Got some proof PU cleans better than Kreen or MMO? I agree it might do some cleaning, but for problem engines it doesn't clean as well as oil with MMO or Kreen added. Once a problem engine is cleaned up PU would be a great choice to keep it clean.
As far as MMO hurting lubricity check out the used oil analysis section you might be surprised. Yea TBN takes a hit that's old news. Extended drains are not beneficial while cleaning an engine so it's a moot point.
Where did he say PU cleans better?
Originally Posted By: Donald
The problem with an old article is the oils have gotten so much better.
And with respect to MMO leave it on the Walmart shelf and pick up PU oil. MMO while it may not ruin an engine DOES HURT the lubricity of the engine oil and I would rather clean my engine with PU than with MMO. But its kind of a free country still in many way, so use what you wish.
Got some proof PU cleans better than Kreen or MMO? I agree it might do some cleaning, but for problem engines it doesn't clean as well as oil with MMO or Kreen added. Once a problem engine is cleaned up PU would be a great choice to keep it clean.
As far as MMO hurting lubricity check out the used oil analysis section you might be surprised. Yea TBN takes a hit that's old news. Extended drains are not beneficial while cleaning an engine so it's a moot point.
Where did he say PU cleans better?
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Donald
The problem with an old article is the oils have gotten so much better.
And with respect to MMO leave it on the Walmart shelf and pick up PU oil. MMO while it may not ruin an engine DOES HURT the lubricity of the engine oil and I would rather clean my engine with PU than with MMO. But its kind of a free country still in many way, so use what you wish.
Got some proof PU cleans better than Kreen or MMO? I agree it might do some cleaning, but for problem engines it doesn't clean as well as oil with MMO or Kreen added. Once a problem engine is cleaned up PU would be a great choice to keep it clean.
As far as MMO hurting lubricity check out the used oil analysis section you might be surprised. Yea TBN takes a hit that's old news. Extended drains are not beneficial while cleaning an engine so it's a moot point.
Where did he say PU cleans better?
He wasn't implying that? He takes his shots at MMO every opportunity he gets. I figured I'd have some fun too.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Donald
The problem with an old article is the oils have gotten so much better.
And with respect to MMO leave it on the Walmart shelf and pick up PU oil. MMO while it may not ruin an engine DOES HURT the lubricity of the engine oil and I would rather clean my engine with PU than with MMO. But its kind of a free country still in many way, so use what you wish.
Got some proof PU cleans better than Kreen or MMO? I agree it might do some cleaning, but for problem engines it doesn't clean as well as oil with MMO or Kreen added. Once a problem engine is cleaned up PU would be a great choice to keep it clean.
As far as MMO hurting lubricity check out the used oil analysis section you might be surprised. Yea TBN takes a hit that's old news. Extended drains are not beneficial while cleaning an engine so it's a moot point.
Where did he say PU cleans better?
He wasn't implying that? He takes his shots at MMO every opportunity he gets. I figured I'd have some fun too.
Originally Posted By: skyship
http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/1...A_Negative.html
Embarrassingly old and outdated.
Again, you paint with too broad of a brush. We would agree on the salient points of the article, there are still outlying individuals at the edges of what is considered "normal".
http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/1...A_Negative.html
Embarrassingly old and outdated.
Again, you paint with too broad of a brush. We would agree on the salient points of the article, there are still outlying individuals at the edges of what is considered "normal".
There is nothing in the article that is outdated because most of the snake oils have not changed their ingrediants, but what has changed is the sensivity of many types of engine, as more cars and trucks have turbos that are very intollerant of poor lubrication and have oil feed lines that in some cases are prone to blockage from sludge.
Some garages and auto engineers did use drive around type sludge cleaners in the past, but I talk to these chaps quite often and none of them would risk using such additives with a modern engine, although they often use Liqui Moly flush which is added just before an oil change with the engine allowed to idle for 10 minutes, which is far safer as the turbo isn't doing much and the oil pump feed is unlikely to block at low revs.
Some garages and auto engineers did use drive around type sludge cleaners in the past, but I talk to these chaps quite often and none of them would risk using such additives with a modern engine, although they often use Liqui Moly flush which is added just before an oil change with the engine allowed to idle for 10 minutes, which is far safer as the turbo isn't doing much and the oil pump feed is unlikely to block at low revs.
New oil additive from Wynns:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1YndLmbXQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1YndLmbXQ
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
...most experts still recommend that you avoid their use. The reason for this is that your oil, as purchased from one of the major oil companies, already contains a very extensive additive package.
This package is made up of numerous, specific additive components, blended to achieve a specific formula that will meet the requirements of your engine. Usually, at least several of these additives will be synergistic. That is, they react mutually, in groups of two or more, to create an effect that none of them could attain individually. Changing or adding to this formula can upset the balance and negate the protective effect the formula was meant to achieve, even if you are only adding more of something that was already included in the initial package.
Well stated.
...most experts still recommend that you avoid their use. The reason for this is that your oil, as purchased from one of the major oil companies, already contains a very extensive additive package.
This package is made up of numerous, specific additive components, blended to achieve a specific formula that will meet the requirements of your engine. Usually, at least several of these additives will be synergistic. That is, they react mutually, in groups of two or more, to create an effect that none of them could attain individually. Changing or adding to this formula can upset the balance and negate the protective effect the formula was meant to achieve, even if you are only adding more of something that was already included in the initial package.
Well stated.
IIRC Weren't you a advocate of ARX?
Just asking i don't feel like researching all these post for the last 5 yrs.
If you are not then no harm no foul. If you are then thats getting a bit edgy don't you think?
So is ARX an additive or not and included in the avoid list?
Just asking i don't feel like researching all these post for the last 5 yrs.
If you are not then no harm no foul. If you are then thats getting a bit edgy don't you think?
So is ARX an additive or not and included in the avoid list?
Originally Posted By: Trav
IIRC Weren't you a advocate of ARX?
Just asking i don't feel like researching all these post for the last 5 yrs.
If you are not then no harm no foul. If you are then thats getting a bit edgy don't you think?
So is ARX an additive or not and included in the avoid list?
It isn't an additive, LOL. That's what they claim/claimed. Funny though you'd open a bottle and pour it in just like any other additive. Just be sure to heat it up during the winter or it won't pour, unless you store it in a warm place.
IIRC Weren't you a advocate of ARX?
Just asking i don't feel like researching all these post for the last 5 yrs.
If you are not then no harm no foul. If you are then thats getting a bit edgy don't you think?
So is ARX an additive or not and included in the avoid list?
It isn't an additive, LOL. That's what they claim/claimed. Funny though you'd open a bottle and pour it in just like any other additive. Just be sure to heat it up during the winter or it won't pour, unless you store it in a warm place.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Weren't you a advocate of ARX?
Not as a Third Party, OTC additive as currently defined.
I recommended it as a seal conditioner for leaking seals. I also qualified that NO product is a miracle cure or that it would help a badly worn or torn seal.
As far as I know, it was and still is a multi-ester mix that contains no AW or FM additives, and no conventional hydrocarbon solvents.
As another qualifier, I have never had, nor do I currently have, any business or pecuniary interests in the company that produces Auto-RX.
Weren't you a advocate of ARX?
Not as a Third Party, OTC additive as currently defined.
I recommended it as a seal conditioner for leaking seals. I also qualified that NO product is a miracle cure or that it would help a badly worn or torn seal.
As far as I know, it was and still is a multi-ester mix that contains no AW or FM additives, and no conventional hydrocarbon solvents.
As another qualifier, I have never had, nor do I currently have, any business or pecuniary interests in the company that produces Auto-RX.
Last edited:
Okay but adding esters to a properly formulated oil isnt going to upset the balance?
Oils contain moly so just adding a little more should be a problem either right?
I don't know about this thread.
One guy hates additives and every post is against something but comes out and says but use LM fast flush
Now this with the seal stop leak with ARX.
This seems like a one way street, do as we say not as we do thing going on here.
I for one are not buying these woof tickets.
Oils contain moly so just adding a little more should be a problem either right?
I don't know about this thread.
One guy hates additives and every post is against something but comes out and says but use LM fast flush
Now this with the seal stop leak with ARX.
This seems like a one way street, do as we say not as we do thing going on here.
I for one are not buying these woof tickets.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Okay but adding esters to a properly formulated oil isnt going to upset the balance?
Oils contain moly so just adding a little more should be a problem either right?
I don't know about this thread.
One guy hates additives and every post is against something but comes out and says but use LM fast flush
Now this with the seal stop leak with ARX.
This seems like a one way street, do as we say not as we do thing going on here.
I for one are not buying these woof tickets.
Yep a one way street, but then again they hand pick additives like we do Trav! I think what they're saying is not all additives are bad.
All I know is make sure those esters recommended for "seal conditioners" are at room temp or close to it before pouring them in. In the wintertime the "seal conditioner" from Florida I have in my basement thickens up enough that pouring it is a problem, don't even think of storing it in the garage, not good IMO. But then the guys that use the product will tell you it doesn't impact the oil flow, and makes oil better, and cleans during the rinse, yea OK. That's one additive I won't ever use again, so I guess I do agree to a point with some of the guys against additives, at least for this one.
Okay but adding esters to a properly formulated oil isnt going to upset the balance?
Oils contain moly so just adding a little more should be a problem either right?
I don't know about this thread.
One guy hates additives and every post is against something but comes out and says but use LM fast flush
Now this with the seal stop leak with ARX.
This seems like a one way street, do as we say not as we do thing going on here.
I for one are not buying these woof tickets.
Yep a one way street, but then again they hand pick additives like we do Trav! I think what they're saying is not all additives are bad.
All I know is make sure those esters recommended for "seal conditioners" are at room temp or close to it before pouring them in. In the wintertime the "seal conditioner" from Florida I have in my basement thickens up enough that pouring it is a problem, don't even think of storing it in the garage, not good IMO. But then the guys that use the product will tell you it doesn't impact the oil flow, and makes oil better, and cleans during the rinse, yea OK. That's one additive I won't ever use again, so I guess I do agree to a point with some of the guys against additives, at least for this one.
Quote:
But then the guys that use the product will tell you it doesn't impact the oil flow, and makes oil better, and cleans during the rinse, yea OK. That's one additive I won't ever use again,
That stuff really left me in the lurch one time.
I asked if it was okay to use it in my automatic transfer case, of course the answer was sure it is.
Snow and -5f and guess what. The electric transfer case motor wont go into 4WD.
On my back with a hair dryer to warm it up then it finally engaged, i drove it till warm then on my back again to change the fluid, what a nightmare.
It worked perfectly afterward. Wonderful stuff that is, so much for it not changing the oil.
But then the guys that use the product will tell you it doesn't impact the oil flow, and makes oil better, and cleans during the rinse, yea OK. That's one additive I won't ever use again,
That stuff really left me in the lurch one time.
I asked if it was okay to use it in my automatic transfer case, of course the answer was sure it is.
Snow and -5f and guess what. The electric transfer case motor wont go into 4WD.
On my back with a hair dryer to warm it up then it finally engaged, i drove it till warm then on my back again to change the fluid, what a nightmare.
It worked perfectly afterward. Wonderful stuff that is, so much for it not changing the oil.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
But then the guys that use the product will tell you it doesn't impact the oil flow, and makes oil better, and cleans during the rinse, yea OK. That's one additive I won't ever use again,
That stuff really left me in the lurch one time.
I asked if it was okay to use it in my automatic transfer case, of course the answer was sure it is.
Snow and -5f and guess what. The electric transfer case motor wont go into 4WD.
On my back with a hair dryer to warm it up then it finally engaged, i drove it till warm then on my back again to change the fluid, what a nightmare.
It worked perfectly afterward. Wonderful stuff that is, so much for it not changing the oil.
It had to thicken up the fluid in the transfer case. If you have a bottle put it in the refrigerator and see what happens. Freezer, don't even think about it.
Quote:
But then the guys that use the product will tell you it doesn't impact the oil flow, and makes oil better, and cleans during the rinse, yea OK. That's one additive I won't ever use again,
That stuff really left me in the lurch one time.
I asked if it was okay to use it in my automatic transfer case, of course the answer was sure it is.
Snow and -5f and guess what. The electric transfer case motor wont go into 4WD.
On my back with a hair dryer to warm it up then it finally engaged, i drove it till warm then on my back again to change the fluid, what a nightmare.
It worked perfectly afterward. Wonderful stuff that is, so much for it not changing the oil.
It had to thicken up the fluid in the transfer case. If you have a bottle put it in the refrigerator and see what happens. Freezer, don't even think about it.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Okay but adding esters to a properly formulated oil isnt going to upset the balance?
Oils contain moly so just adding a little more should [not] be a problem either right?
By balance I assume you mean changing the additive levels (in ppm) of the other additives?
Anytime you add a volume of something extra to the oil you are going to change the other additves by a certain ppm level:
(Additive oz. x PPM + Sump Oil oz. x PPM)/(oz. of Additive + oz. of Sump PCMO) = new ppm
Adding about 10 ounces of a triple-ester might reduce the other additive levels about 10-25 ppm?
Of course if you took something like LubeGuard and added it to a volume of oil, your Molybdenum, Calcium, and phosphorous levels would go up depending on the formula above.
Okay but adding esters to a properly formulated oil isnt going to upset the balance?
Oils contain moly so just adding a little more should [not] be a problem either right?
By balance I assume you mean changing the additive levels (in ppm) of the other additives?
Anytime you add a volume of something extra to the oil you are going to change the other additves by a certain ppm level:
(Additive oz. x PPM + Sump Oil oz. x PPM)/(oz. of Additive + oz. of Sump PCMO) = new ppm
Adding about 10 ounces of a triple-ester might reduce the other additive levels about 10-25 ppm?
Of course if you took something like LubeGuard and added it to a volume of oil, your Molybdenum, Calcium, and phosphorous levels would go up depending on the formula above.
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