I did it all the times, never had problems.
Gassing up while the tanker is present
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Well, I never personally saw Hoffa's body in a tank but I know this guy who knows this guy who heard in Chicago...
Maybe Jimmy Hoffa went the way of Helen Brach. IN the car in more ways than one.
Originally Posted By: scurvy
I'll take note that you didn't have any objection to "...rust, scale, debris, ...water, Jimmy Hoffa's skeleton" so your tacit agreement that UST contain all of these things has been noted.
Maybe Jimmy Hoffa went the way of Helen Brach. IN the car in more ways than one.
Originally Posted By: scurvy
I'll take note that you didn't have any objection to "...rust, scale, debris, ...water, Jimmy Hoffa's skeleton" so your tacit agreement that UST contain all of these things has been noted.
There was a big change in EPA regulations in the past decade IIRC, so lots of stations either closed or planned to upgrade.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Vikas
In the last few years, most of the pumps around my area have had a downtime when they were dug up. My assumption is that town makes them replace the tanks periodically or may be they had old tanks which needed to be replaced.
It's more likely that the state made them replace the tanks. Most service stations use groundwater monitoring as a form of inventory control, and this is usually reportable to the state regulator's office. Releases to the environment usually mean expensive and costly downtime, to include tank removal and replacement if the station elects to continue selling fuel. As you noted, they sometimes don't, and convert into a simple convenience store.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Vikas
In the last few years, most of the pumps around my area have had a downtime when they were dug up. My assumption is that town makes them replace the tanks periodically or may be they had old tanks which needed to be replaced.
It's more likely that the state made them replace the tanks. Most service stations use groundwater monitoring as a form of inventory control, and this is usually reportable to the state regulator's office. Releases to the environment usually mean expensive and costly downtime, to include tank removal and replacement if the station elects to continue selling fuel. As you noted, they sometimes don't, and convert into a simple convenience store.
During a recent conversation with a WaWa manager, he said the tanks are filled up 4 times per day. The "junk" is never going to settle in a situation like this. I have used their gas many times and never had a problem.
4 times a day? not very economical. Highly doubtful unless they are a huge truck stop.
Originally Posted By: Barkleymut
During a recent conversation with a WaWa manager, he said the tanks are filled up 4 times per day. The "junk" is never going to settle in a situation like this. I have used their gas many times and never had a problem.
Originally Posted By: Barkleymut
During a recent conversation with a WaWa manager, he said the tanks are filled up 4 times per day. The "junk" is never going to settle in a situation like this. I have used their gas many times and never had a problem.
Originally Posted By: asiancivicmaniac
People unknowingly do this all the time. If it was a problem then we'd here about the hundred, if not thousands, of cars that break down because of it.
Dang you and your logic - how could everyone else be wrong with their theoretical anecdotes?
Originally Posted By: rationull
Wow, quite a response. Lots of interestinginfo speculation here.
I guess I should stop worrying about it and get on with my life.
This too is correct.
People unknowingly do this all the time. If it was a problem then we'd here about the hundred, if not thousands, of cars that break down because of it.
Dang you and your logic - how could everyone else be wrong with their theoretical anecdotes?
Originally Posted By: rationull
Wow, quite a response. Lots of interesting
I guess I should stop worrying about it and get on with my life.
This too is correct.
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Originally Posted By: BobsArmory
4 times a day? not very economical. Highly doubtful unless they are a huge truck stop.
One of our stations here receives five deliveries a day on busy days, and normally at least three. Remember that a delivery might only be 5,000 gallons or less at a time. So they may only receive 20,000 gallons of fuel a day. Divided by an average fill-up of, say, 12 gallons, and that's 1,666 customers. Divide that by the busier 18 hours of a day and it's 92 customers an hour, or just 1.5/minute.
Absolutely plausible for some stations with moderate traffic, especially discount stations or high-volume stations.
4 times a day? not very economical. Highly doubtful unless they are a huge truck stop.
One of our stations here receives five deliveries a day on busy days, and normally at least three. Remember that a delivery might only be 5,000 gallons or less at a time. So they may only receive 20,000 gallons of fuel a day. Divided by an average fill-up of, say, 12 gallons, and that's 1,666 customers. Divide that by the busier 18 hours of a day and it's 92 customers an hour, or just 1.5/minute.
Absolutely plausible for some stations with moderate traffic, especially discount stations or high-volume stations.
I think most Costco stations have at the very least 1 refill a day. Most Costco stations here in So Cal are extremely busy, 3-4 vehicles or more on every lane from open to close.
This is 21st century, not 1960's-1970's, junk in the tanks was thing of the past.
This is 21st century, not 1960's-1970's, junk in the tanks was thing of the past.
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
yup....gasoline, diesel, kerosene, and Av-gas is all filtered at the pump and before the delivery hose. IIRC, diesel filters handled about 10k gallons before needing changed.....snaller stations? Who knows....I think they are typically changed when customers start complaining of slow fills....of course by then the filter is in by-pass.
I have seen pumps with the filters REMOVED: they took out the clogged filter and reassembled it with no filter!
Needless to say, I don't buy fuel there.
yup....gasoline, diesel, kerosene, and Av-gas is all filtered at the pump and before the delivery hose. IIRC, diesel filters handled about 10k gallons before needing changed.....snaller stations? Who knows....I think they are typically changed when customers start complaining of slow fills....of course by then the filter is in by-pass.
I have seen pumps with the filters REMOVED: they took out the clogged filter and reassembled it with no filter!
Needless to say, I don't buy fuel there.
In a typical 12000 gallon UST, how many inches would equate to 36 gallons? We would typically pump water out of our tanks once we reached around 8 inches or so and would normally yield about 150 - 200 gallons of water/gunk from a 20k gallon UST. A typical 20k gallon UST can hold up to around 600 gallons of water before you really have to start worrying/losing sleep about sucking raw water/gunk into the pick-up piping. I too have seen the inside of a LOT of UST's and I've never seen one that I thought was clean....if they were then there wouldn't be such a big market for electronic monitoring systems. Most of the folks in here that have experienced fuel related problems, nurse their vehicle home or worse case, have it towed to a shop...infect 800 buses used for public transportation and you've created a huge economic disaster....yep, it's happened before and it's not pretty.
Also, I was referring to pumping the water/gunk out of an UST, not the entire contents. Every year or so, depending on fuel sample analysis, we would have the tanks "cleaned" which is done by inserting a hi-pressure pump into the fuel and working it throughout the tank cleaning it with turbulence via of the pump....meanwhile a certain percentage of the fuel was sucked out, filtered and put back in the tank....the theory being that cleaning the tank this way eliminated most of the microbes that thrive in diesel.
Also, I was referring to pumping the water/gunk out of an UST, not the entire contents. Every year or so, depending on fuel sample analysis, we would have the tanks "cleaned" which is done by inserting a hi-pressure pump into the fuel and working it throughout the tank cleaning it with turbulence via of the pump....meanwhile a certain percentage of the fuel was sucked out, filtered and put back in the tank....the theory being that cleaning the tank this way eliminated most of the microbes that thrive in diesel.
for those following this and for Hokiefyd, the answer is around 1/4". 1/4" in a TYPICAL 12000 gallon UST equals about 40 gallons, give or take. Yep, UST's hold a lot of water and there is more water and gunk present at the bottom of storage tanks than most people can imagine.
It doesn't mean the fuel is dirty but the tankers themselves can get pretty cruddy.
It doesn't mean the fuel is dirty but the tankers themselves can get pretty cruddy.
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
In a typical 12000 gallon UST, how many inches would equate to 36 gallons?
It depends on the tank size and configuration. For a tank 40x7 (almost 12,000 gallons), 36 gallons is about 1-1/2" at the bottom. 50x6.5, closer to 1".
Great tank capacity and partial volume calculators at Bendel Tank's website:
http://www.bendelcorp.com/toolscalculators.html
In a typical 12000 gallon UST, how many inches would equate to 36 gallons?
It depends on the tank size and configuration. For a tank 40x7 (almost 12,000 gallons), 36 gallons is about 1-1/2" at the bottom. 50x6.5, closer to 1".
Great tank capacity and partial volume calculators at Bendel Tank's website:
http://www.bendelcorp.com/toolscalculators.html
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
for those following this and for Hokiefyd, the answer is around 1/4". 1/4" in a TYPICAL 12000 gallon UST equals about 40 gallons, give or take.
Again, it would depend on the dimensions.
Clawson Tank is a mainline supplier of fiberglass USTs; you can see on their website that they offer more than one configuration for most sizes. They offer two 12,000 gallon UST sizes, one is 32'x8', and one is 18.5'x10.5'.
For the 32'x8' tank, 40 gallons would be close to 1-1/2", and 600 gallons of free-phase water would be over 9" on the bottom.
For the 18.5'x10.5' tank, 40 gallons would be 2", and 600 gallons of free-phase water would over 12" on the bottom.
I would consider 600 gallons of free-phase water to be a lot; that's something we just never have in our tanks. There is some volume of water that will be adsorbed into the alcohol in the fuel, but this is generally a pretty small amount, at least in my experience.
I do appreciate this discussion; it's always good to hear of other perspectives on this (or any) issue.
Oh, and we're thinking of you guys in the upper mid Atlantic and northeast. I've seen forecasts of multiple feet of snow for some; hope it's not too disruptive and pray that everyone stays safe.
for those following this and for Hokiefyd, the answer is around 1/4". 1/4" in a TYPICAL 12000 gallon UST equals about 40 gallons, give or take.
Again, it would depend on the dimensions.
Clawson Tank is a mainline supplier of fiberglass USTs; you can see on their website that they offer more than one configuration for most sizes. They offer two 12,000 gallon UST sizes, one is 32'x8', and one is 18.5'x10.5'.
For the 32'x8' tank, 40 gallons would be close to 1-1/2", and 600 gallons of free-phase water would be over 9" on the bottom.
For the 18.5'x10.5' tank, 40 gallons would be 2", and 600 gallons of free-phase water would over 12" on the bottom.
I would consider 600 gallons of free-phase water to be a lot; that's something we just never have in our tanks. There is some volume of water that will be adsorbed into the alcohol in the fuel, but this is generally a pretty small amount, at least in my experience.
I do appreciate this discussion; it's always good to hear of other perspectives on this (or any) issue.
Oh, and we're thinking of you guys in the upper mid Atlantic and northeast. I've seen forecasts of multiple feet of snow for some; hope it's not too disruptive and pray that everyone stays safe.
This is a good discussion. I can understand tanks accumulating water with pure gasoline.
With E-10?? It seems that with each fill, some water would be absorbed by the new gas until there was no water.
Plus, with E-10, would not the "water" actually be a combo of water and ethanol, since phase separation is the mechanism that water falls out of suspension in E-10. And, the remaining gas is then much lower in octane.
Can someone explain fleetmon's rational??
Another question. My workplace above ground ag. tanks use water sensing filters that shut down the flow if water becomes a problem. Do retail gas pump filters use these types of filters??
With E-10?? It seems that with each fill, some water would be absorbed by the new gas until there was no water.
Plus, with E-10, would not the "water" actually be a combo of water and ethanol, since phase separation is the mechanism that water falls out of suspension in E-10. And, the remaining gas is then much lower in octane.
Can someone explain fleetmon's rational??
Another question. My workplace above ground ag. tanks use water sensing filters that shut down the flow if water becomes a problem. Do retail gas pump filters use these types of filters??
I'm probably mixing apples with oranges.....most of my experience is with diesel UST and my experience also pre-dates ethanol-laced gasoline. Have no doubt though....there is ALWAYS water present in a storage tank....comes from the tanker delivering it and seepage around the cap, particularly in the snow regions.
Note, I was giving examples of TYPICAL tank sizes...12k and 20k gallon sizes.
Note, I was giving examples of TYPICAL tank sizes...12k and 20k gallon sizes.
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
I'm probably mixing apples with oranges.....most of my experience is with diesel UST and my experience also pre-dates ethanol-laced gasoline. Have no doubt though....there is ALWAYS water present in a storage tank....comes from the tanker delivering it and seepage around the cap, particularly in the snow regions.
You were working with pre-ethanol gas and diesel...and all we sell here is ethanol gas, and we don't sell diesel, so I guess our perspectives very much differ indeed. And we don't have the challenge of snow-covered fill pipe sumps like you guys had. And I imagine that with the wider temperature variations in the northeast, condensation is also more of a problem than it is here in the southeast.
Cheers my friend.
I'm probably mixing apples with oranges.....most of my experience is with diesel UST and my experience also pre-dates ethanol-laced gasoline. Have no doubt though....there is ALWAYS water present in a storage tank....comes from the tanker delivering it and seepage around the cap, particularly in the snow regions.
You were working with pre-ethanol gas and diesel...and all we sell here is ethanol gas, and we don't sell diesel, so I guess our perspectives very much differ indeed. And we don't have the challenge of snow-covered fill pipe sumps like you guys had. And I imagine that with the wider temperature variations in the northeast, condensation is also more of a problem than it is here in the southeast.
Cheers my friend.
I know someone who had this happen around 1993 or 1994. It gummed up their fuel system.
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
I know someone who had this happen around 1993 or 1994. It gummed up their fuel system.
What were the symptoms and how was it traced to a particular incident while filling up?
I know someone who had this happen around 1993 or 1994. It gummed up their fuel system.
What were the symptoms and how was it traced to a particular incident while filling up?
Cheers to you too hokiefyd....it's all good!
Good thread and lots of info....I like'em like this one.
Good thread and lots of info....I like'em like this one.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
With E-10?? It seems that with each fill, some water would be absorbed by the new gas until there was no water.
I know they say that you shouldn't have to add any gas line antifreeze to your fuel anymore, but sometimes I wonder about E-10's ability to carry away water. I have two '96 Jeep Cherokees, and within the past 6 months I've changed the fuel filter on each of them. The fuel filter for this make and model is huge. It sits horizontal and it's got to be the same size or bigger than a beer can, so I'd say maybe about 12 ounces in size. On each one of these filters, it was probably almost half full of water and when I poured it out of the fuel filter, it would not burn. I thought the alcohol in the fuel would have carried all of the water out, but it hadn't.
As far as gasoline storage tanks, I'm going to pick on the two nearest to me. One of them has above-ground tanks and are made of metal. If they look as bad on the inside as they do on the outside, there has got to be dirt inside of them. The other one is underground and is made of plastic (I believe) and has a system that checks for leaks every week. I'll have to talk to the owner how well that works.
With E-10?? It seems that with each fill, some water would be absorbed by the new gas until there was no water.
I know they say that you shouldn't have to add any gas line antifreeze to your fuel anymore, but sometimes I wonder about E-10's ability to carry away water. I have two '96 Jeep Cherokees, and within the past 6 months I've changed the fuel filter on each of them. The fuel filter for this make and model is huge. It sits horizontal and it's got to be the same size or bigger than a beer can, so I'd say maybe about 12 ounces in size. On each one of these filters, it was probably almost half full of water and when I poured it out of the fuel filter, it would not burn. I thought the alcohol in the fuel would have carried all of the water out, but it hadn't.
As far as gasoline storage tanks, I'm going to pick on the two nearest to me. One of them has above-ground tanks and are made of metal. If they look as bad on the inside as they do on the outside, there has got to be dirt inside of them. The other one is underground and is made of plastic (I believe) and has a system that checks for leaks every week. I'll have to talk to the owner how well that works.
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